BusinessWeek article: For-Profit Colleges Target the Military

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Dr Rene, Jan 6, 2010.

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  1. Dr Rene

    Dr Rene Member

  2. 03310151

    03310151 Active Member

    Interesting quote here from the Col

    Mike Shields, a retired Marine Corps colonel and human resources director for U.S. field operations for Schindler Elevator, the North American arm of Switzerland's Schindler Group, says he rejects about 50 military candidates each year for the company's management development program because their graduate degrees come from online for-profits. "We don't even consider them," Shields says

    So my MBA from a school founded by a former Marine Major would not even qualify me for a developmental position? This is most disheartening, wow. What can I do? My already dim view of education has taken another hit...crap.

    Scratch some more places off of my list.

    Still, when service members earn degrees from online for-profits, human resources executives at big companies are often reluctant to hire them, says Cohen. "There are some firms that are heavily credential-oriented," he says. "McKinsey & Co. is one of them. They might balk. Amazon (AMZN) might balk. Shell Oil is another one." McKinsey, Amazon.com, and Shell declined to comment.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2010
  3. Daniel Luechtefeld

    Daniel Luechtefeld New Member

    This quote was telling (but it doesn't apply at my own employer):

    Mike Shields, a retired Marine Corps colonel and human resources director for U.S. field operations for Schindler Elevator, the North American arm of Switzerland's Schindler Group, says he rejects about 50 military candidates each year for the company's management development program because their graduate degrees come from online for-profits. "We don't even consider them," Shields says. "For the caliber of individuals and credentials we're looking for, we need what we feel is a more broadened and in-depth educational experience." He does hire service members with online degrees for jobs on nonleadership tracks, he says.

    ...and to be sure, there are plenty of former and retired military officers who have the opportunity to attend prestigious non-profit, B&M graduate programs
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2010
  4. "University of Phoenix, the biggest for-profit college in the U.S., some active-duty military personnel can earn an associate's degree, which typically takes two years of study, in five weeks."

    I've never heard of that. I know you could do that if you go crazy with CLEP/DANTES and enroll in one of the Big Three... but what program dos UofP offer?

    In general, I think this article does a great job of being balanced and honest. The message is that online education is respectable and marketable, however, there are a few dirty players (almost invariably the for-profits) in the game who could be ruining it for all. I am a bit worried, however, that there are still many people who don't understand the difference between which is which- both people, often millitary personel, who get tricked into going to the "wrong" school, as well as the sector of the public who think that online education in itself is necessarily inferior.

    I once made mention of the possibility of my brother (now a junior in high school) taking online classes when he graduates. His aunt (his guardian) said "NO! You don't want to to that! Many places don't accept those!" If I was in the right mood, I could have mentioned that NYU, Rutgers, UMASS, UCONN, SUNY, CUNY, Northeastern, Boston University, our very own State and Community College system and yes, Harvard offer a selection (some more varied than others) of online degrees themselves, and that most colleges will accept RA credits from online schools- and that even people who go to The Big Three can get into graduate programs at such traditional, respectable, schools.
     
  5. Jazz

    Jazz Guest

    And that's the difference. NYU, BU, and Harvard are totally different from UoP, AMU, etc... No one expects a Harvard education to be easy, whereas many of the for-profits advertise just the opposite.
     
  6. zanger

    zanger member

    This is called a dose of reality.
     
  7. AUTiger00

    AUTiger00 New Member

    +1.
    It's glaring that several of these institutions happen to set their tuition to the exact amount the Federal Government will subsidize.
    This is just more proof that the cheapest, easiest degree is rarely the best value.
     
  8. Ian Anderson

    Ian Anderson Active Member

    So he ignores all the other positive attributes of applicants? How shortsighted.
    I wonder if he also reject non-military applicants with this type of degree?
     
  9. AUTiger00

    AUTiger00 New Member

    Like it or not, where your degree comes from matters. Organizations use it as a filtering tool because it is an easy way to trim the applicant pool.
    In regards to your question, I would assume that they filter out anyone who's degree was earned from a for-profit online school, regardless of military experience.
     
  10. emmzee

    emmzee New Member

    Sadly this is one of the reasons I changed my mind and decided not to pursue a MA in history from APU after applying & having all my documents accepted and so on.

    It's a shame because I think I would've enjoyed the program, and from what I saw it certainly was not easy or a free ride by any means, at least in terms of the amount of reading and work required, and AMU/APU is one of the schools specifically mentioned in the article ... of course, I didn't actually complete any courses so I can't comment on the rigor of the marking or anything like that.
     
  11. -kevin-

    -kevin- Resident Redneck

    I disagree with your position. If a degree is required and applicants continue to be turned away due to the college from which they graduated, at some point a protected class will file a suit. For profits have a significant number of underrepresented and protected classes as graduates:

    http://www.cgsnet.org/portals/0/pdf/DataSources_2009_08.pdf

    My advice to the individual quoted in the article is that he prepare himself for the suit that will follow.

    I'm always amazed that hiring individuals will go on the public record with policies and practices that can come back to haunt them. There are many other filters besides WHERE you graduated that can provide a discriminator for hiring.

    We cannot discriminate in this fashion in the government. We can require specialized accreditation but cannot throw out a properly accredited degree because it came from a for-profit iinstitution.
     
  12. AUTiger00

    AUTiger00 New Member

    And I am sure that the organization that gentleman works for hires plenty of individuals from underrepresented and protected classes that went to more reputable schools. How do you explain companies that only recruit at a select number of top tier schools? How do they avoid falling into the same type of lawsuit(s) you foresee this organization having brought against them?

    You can disagree with my position all you want, it doesn't mean it isn't true.
     
  13. -kevin-

    -kevin- Resident Redneck

    Normally by requiring additonal accreditation, AACSB, ABA, ABET, etc...thereby ensuring a closer match to the results sought and filtering out most, if not all for profits. In addition, the manager should openly address the requirements in the vacancy announcement rather than tossing resumes on the backside of the process as depicted in the article.

    There isn't an issue with stating that an individual must have graduated from a top B school as there are plenty of diverse graduates. But not placing this requirement in the forefront makes it tough to defend a position where the vast majority of the persons not hired are potentially a protected class.

    I don't disagree that the selectivity process is a fact merely that firms must be open in their requirements. In this instance there wasn't a clear indication of the degree (school) requirements. I was disagreeing with your position in the context of the thread (article).
     
  14. TEKMAN

    TEKMAN Semper Fi!

    I remembered one time University of Phoenix advertised free admission for the active duty students. And they will award an Associate Degree to active duty personnel by taking only one course, and the rest from Military training and CEU credits.
     
  15. A person pursuing any type of education needs to be realistic. This problem happens most often, however, in the business and political world and less in many other fields. Would a State social work position favor an ivy league grad over a grad from a lesser known school? Maybe, but it's not quite as cutthroat and elitist as corporations and public offices are.

    Even so, a UofP or AIU business graduate may not be in line for the absolute best jobs out there, but he will certainly be in a much better position than someone who has no degree at all. Maybe he gets a management job in a small firm. Maybe he becomes the director of a community services not-for-profit. Maybe, maybe, maybe, who knows? Would he have been able to do that without the degree? Probably not, at least not without a decade or two of working from the bottom up. Therefore, the degree won't be completely worthless, only not quite a BIG NAME degree.

    BTW, I know someone who graduated from Boston College with a double major BA... what does she do for work? She just got promoted from cashier to manager at Dunkin' Donuts.
     
  16. Your college experience is as easy or as hard as you choose to make it. Many people take the easiest, least demanding classes in order to breeze by getting a well-respected BIG NAME degree... others (like myself ) choose nontraditional routes and work hard at it, not just aiming to pass tests and get credit but actually learning and growing along the way.

    The problem is, of course, one can't know that about my education until they meet me for themselves. Nor can they know that an NYU grad took classes in Contemporary Television Programming and The Mechanics of Nailclipping... but of course, the assumption will always be made in favor of the NYU grad. I understand and accept that.

    Similarly, anyone who goes to either a lesser-known school or, worse, an online for-profit, needs to understand and accept what they are getting themselves into.

    A much bigger problem is if these schools are, for the time and energy, even worth the while. If UMUC costs less, is getting more respect, and still allows you to complete a degree while in active service- then what is there to gain by going to one of the schools in question?
     
  17. AUTiger00

    AUTiger00 New Member

    Fair enough. I wasn't clear on your position. I have seen plenty of job posting for management track/executive training programs, two that I remember specifically, that clearly stated that candidates had to be MBA graduates from programs ranked in the top 25 (it didn't specify which ranking the company was using). One was with Toyota, the other was with BellSouth (now AT&T).
    So to be clear, are you saying that it is acceptable to require graduates to come from specific schools as long as they disclose that information?
     
  18. AUTiger00

    AUTiger00 New Member

    You would be surprised what location managers in franchise food service make. I have a friend that I attended Auburn with that ended up managing a Sonic in her home town in Alabama with a salary in the mid-60's. I clearly recall a case study we did in undergrad on Outback Steakhouse, they had outstanding retention which is normally extremely high in food service, but their managers could easily make 6 figures with their annual bonus.

    On another note, having moved to Boston from the south I am still lost on the appeal of Dunkin' Donuts. The coffee isn't bad, but their doughnuts have got nothing on Krispy Kremes.
     
  19. bazonkers

    bazonkers New Member

    For some people, the choice is either on-line school or no school at all. I wouldn't be able to pursue a MA in History if I couldn't do it online. Will it close some doors for me? Sure, but not the doors I'd be able to go through anyways.
     
  20. -kevin-

    -kevin- Resident Redneck

    Yes. As long as the job announcement (or more importantly, the hiring process) doesn't discriminate against a protected class. In the article, the process being used could result in a problem for the manager.

    I think that corporate internships go so far as to specify a single school in many instances.
     

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