Grantham College

As a new user of this discussion board, please forgive me if this subject has been covered before. I did a search for Grantham and only came up with one or two messages, so I thought I'd ask....

I just finished my second semester at Grantham College of Engineering and am starting to wonder if I made the right decision enrolling there. I'm finally starting college after 20 years in the electronics field. I received an unaccredited AS degree from a technical school, which was enough to get me a job, and I've worked my way up to a Software Engineer with Boeing. My initial idea was that since I already had all the experience, (over 18 years programming, 6 professionally) all I really needed was the piece of paper. I had exactly one college course under my belt, so I had to start from scratch. Grantham seemed to have the courses I needed (BSCS) and was one of the only places I could find that allowed me to progress at my own pace. I didn't know the difference between RA and non-RA at the time, but now it's starting to make me wonder.

What is the general opinion of Grantham, and is there a list somewhere of colleges that might accept credits from them, should I decide to continue with a MS later on?

Boeing recognizes Grantham and pays my tuition, but I worry if I have to go somewhere else later on, the next employer might not...

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Joe Andrews

 

The acceptance of long-established DETC-accredited degrees in the world of business and industry is probably quite high, although statistics are hard to come by. DETC has just published results of a survey on satisfaction and acceptance of schools it accredits -- but, most unfortunately, 2/3rds of the people who agreed to participate in the study refused to let DETC contact their employer. The employers who werecontacted were virtually all satisfied. More data are really needed here.

Surely, after decades of operation, Grantham should be able to supply a list of companies and agencies that have accepted their degree. Have you asked them?

 

There is a certain amount of paranoia in the tech field.

We don't like to draw attention to ourselves ... even if we ARE doing a good job.

Give me my cube, a cup of coffee and a project and leave me alone.
(A door would be nice, but I'll keep dreaming.)

 

Pardon my diversion, but not too long ago I was told point blank that few large companies accept DETC degrees and very specifically that Boeing "DID NOT"! No ifs ands or buts. It was a fact, and an indisputable one at that. This from a fairly regular that comers and goers would presume had their facts straight. When I offered that Boeing was "in fact" under contract with a DETC school to provide an in-house MBA program, I was told it must be an anomaly. Now we see yet another example regarding Boeing accepting another DETC school. Never an acknowledgement that the purported fact was incorrect.

My point is that all bits of matter of fact information offered here, and anywhere on the net for that matter, must be taken with a very large grain of salt. I have read more opinion that is posted as fact regarding DETC, and who will and won't accept DETC degrees, than you can shake a stick at.

I know, in a vacuum, RA is the "gold standard". But I've never met anyone that lived in a vacuum. I have met many people that make many choices that some "experts" would question and advise against. However reasonable and meaningful nonetheless to the individual making the choice. I mean, you've got $35k, who in their right mind would spend it on a Saab when you can buy a BMW. Better resale, better performance, better reputation, better reliability, better rating, better mass appeal, better branding for that conspicuous consumption fix, better everything...yet Saab is still making cars and well informed people are still buying them.

There is no universal and absolute "gold standard" in accreditation any more than there is an absolute gold standard in automobiles. There are perceptions and there are varying degrees of the masses that buy into the perceptions. I fully support the need for legitimate accreditation as much as anyone here. I do not advocate non-accredited options. I also know that it is ridiculous to link the common practice of mutual acceptance between RAs as a foundation for saying that RA has some lock on accreditation standards. What they do have a lock on is volume. And that does matter.

RA is always better in a vacuum, where all things that can be equal are. But not all things are equal and not all nuances and reasons for a decision by a unique individual with unique context can be perfectly understood by everyone, especially those that are so vested in a single option as the only viable one. That is a position that offers little latitude for understanding how context makes for many different decisions that do not follow the apparent "gold standard" party line but are nonetheless appropriate and sound.

I have joined in with others in offering to newcomers that RA provides far more options. With that in mind, I hope Saab keeps providing an alternative choice, albeit not a particularly popular one.

Again, excuse the diversion and my not really addressing the question.

 

Maybe I'm too cynical, but to me it seems that the perfect choice for a company's in-house MBA program is one that provides excellent education but that will find limited acceptability elsewhere. So you get well-educated employees who find it difficult to parlay that education into better positions outside of Boeing. ISIM fills this role wonderfully.

I don't know when ISIM established their deal with Boeing, but I was struck by this 1999 statement from Roy Rada:

• 
  Consider a company like Boeing. Boeing employs more people than the largest university has students. Boeing gives millions of dollars per year in tuition fees to universities to teach its employees. Universities might consider the advantages of alliances with companies, such as Boeing, that provide a technologically-sophisticated, geographically-distributed, employee-based, student population for the university.

Sounds like the start of a good business plan to me...

 

I am not a fan of DETC degrees however I think the Grantham degree has a lot going for it. Would Boeing cover the costs of a RA program like Touro University International,U of Mass, or U of Maryland?

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Best Regards,
Dave Hayden

 

I don't know how much more 'fact' I can give. I am employed by Boeing and they list Grantham as one of the schools they will provide tuition assistance for. I filled out the proper paperwork, told them which classes I was taking, and they promptly reimbursed me for the tuition costs. Maybe they DON'T accept DETC degrees, but why would they pay that much money if they didn't recognize the school? I do know for a 'fact' that Boeing hires people with 'critical skills' into degreed positions. That's how I was hired.

My original question was mostly centered around Grantham. There seems to be a void of information here about this school. There may be a reason for that, and I really wanted to find out. I understand the position of many people here on RA vs non-RA. At the time I enrolled, I couldn't find many places at all that offered a BSCS degree. Most were BS IT, which I didn't want. I am employed as a software engineer specializing in embedded systems and an IT degree wouldn't fit my career. If I found a school that did offer BSCS, the classes had a set timeframe for completion and did not allow me to progress faster if I could. I don't feel the Excelsior route is right for me because I really need the class material.

 

Joe, my comments were not directed towards you. Sorry of it appeared that way. I was simply trying to point out that it was not too long ago that uninformed and unsubstantiated comments were made on this board, and its predecessor, regarding the lack of acceptance of DETC degrees in the business world. Even when specific evidence was provided to counter the specific claims, new unsubstantiated claims of non-acceptance would appear. Until they too were proven incorrect at which time new unsubstantiated conjecture would surface...a never ending cycle. The bandwagon was not necessarily large, just oddly zealous. Once, upon making a reply that a DETC choice was a reasonable one, I was responded to with a comment from a regular that asked me "how can you sleep at night providing this misguided information". I was told that people come to these forums expecting guidance and to be appropriately informed and my suggestion that a DETC option was a reasonable option was unconscionable. That is how rabid the RA is the only way concept can get.

I definitely believe you. Sorry if it looked like my comments were meant for you.

Paul C.

 

And the discussion continues. Yes most posters here point out that in the U.S. the standard accreditation is RA and DETC is definately less accepted. DETC has tarnished its own reputation by accepting some questionable schools. Could a DETC degree be acceptable to some businesses at some point? Sure. In the field I work in, the last year has seen hiring standards rise substantially. Before experience or ability alone could get you a nice position, Now if you don't have at least a four year degree you will never be interviewed. With costs between RA and DETC so even why would some one choose a DETC degree that would be rejected a substantial amount of time? For the vast majority the choice is clearly the RA degree.

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Best Regards,
Dave Hayden

 

Way back when..... Grantham started out in the Electronics Technician education arena. They offered courses via correspondance. Prior to the DETC rename, the National Home Study Council granted accredation. Grantham , Capitol Radio Engineering Institute (CREI) and Cleveland Institute of Electronics became the major players of the day in the correspondance course field. These institutions found a rather large market in the military. Their offerings were typically more advanced than the fundamental military programs. CIE and Grantham were major players in the NHC (If I can recall my DETC 75 years of History publication. CREI never sought accreditation. They were spun off from Capitol Institute of Technology and sold to McGraw Hill. The poweres that are at McGraw never really did much after the purchase. CREI history is available at the Capitol web page for those interested.

These schools served a need for the transition of ETs to cilvian life. With time, the schools developed the 2 year AS degree programs and Grantham was quite successful. The Milwaukee School of Engineering also got into the game and evolved from correspondance to ABET accreditation for the 4 year progam in Electronics Engineering Technology. MSOE is quite a success story in their evolution.

Basically Joe , the bottom line is you are attending one fine school with a reputation for quality programs.

Regards,

Dick

 

I’m a 47 year old military retiree who is currently working for a defense contractor (just as most retirees do). I obtained a couple AAS degrees while in the service with RA accreditation. I didn’t need the BS degree for the job I’m currently doing, however, my employer suggested that in order to bid on certain defense contracts, the people involved needed to have the BS degree, really didn’t matter the discipline. I researched quite a view institutions, both RA and DETC. I thought that the RA route would have been the more acceptable route to take, but I just couldn’t deal with the time constraints involved with working full time and going to school at night with a family and all. Grantham College was the choice I made, allowing me to determine the when, where, and time spent of my studies. I was approved to use my veterans benefits, as well as company reimbursements, and being DETC accredited, the government will accept it to fulfill the BS requirement. I’m pleased with the coursework so far, just having an occasional problem with the concept of teaching myself. That can be a monumental drawback sometimes, but again, the freedom involved is the bigger asset.
It does seem that where the government is somehow involved, DETC is on equal footing, at least as far as I have been able to determine. Unless, of course, an ABET Engineering degree is required. Just passing on my Grantham story…


Fred Melton

 

Hi Joe - I have read nothing but good things about Grantham. As for continuing on with a MS degree, you can be sure other DETC schools will accpet your degree. As for RA schools, that is a different story. I know John Bear's book has information relating to this topic.

 

The thing about Grantham, California National University, and CIE (and CIE's affiliate World College) is that there IS NO D/L way to get an ABET BSET. Sure, you can go to Excelsior, who's R/A and ABET, but they won't actually allow you to challenge the lab courses or do them D/L; you gotta do the lab work in residence at an ABET school.
ABET says that you can't do electronics lab work at home. DETC thinks you can.
Nosborne

 

The University of Washington will offer the "Certificate Program in Fundamentals of Electrical Engineering" starting in the spring quarter. It is a four-course sequence, including labs, to be completed at a distance. According to their web site the courses can be transferred into the BSEE program at UW, if the student is accepted to the university.

Here's the link: http://www.outreach.washington.edu/extinfo/certprog/fee/fee_gen.asp

I am currently enrolled in the "Introductory Computer Programming" certificate program, which is part of the B.S in Computing and Software Systems available via Distance Learning.

 

I would tend to agree with you on this. It would be hard to do electronics labs UNLESS you were furnished the equipment to do them. Not sure whether Grantham goes to this extent with their EE courses. CS is different, though. Labs are easy because they mostly dela with writing programs. Full working versions of the software you need are furnished with the course. So far, I've got VB Professional and Frontpage.

I think a long talk with my employer is in order. I'd like to know for sure their position on the school, curriculum, and distance education and DETC.

 

Whenever I see this I always have to ask, with whom have they tarnished their reputation? Really, aside from those on this board that don't matter in any real way, me included, whith whom have the DETC tarnished their reputation?

Is it with the US Dept. of Ed. that has recently recommended they be granted the authority to accredit at the first professional level? I doubt it. Is it with those that continue to attend an be successful at DETC accredited institutions? I wouldn't imagine. With whom is their reputation tarnished?

 

If you decide to look for something that's RA, I just came across the BSCS program that's available entirely online from Troy State. Here is the link.

This seems like a solid program, and the tuition is pretty reasonable at $130/credit (semester hour). They even do portfolio assessment for up to 50% of the degree (60 s.h. credits) if that's something that you're interested in, and it looks like they'll take any of the CLEP or DANTES exams, as well as ACE recommended credit and credit for certain training programs. They do have a 30 credit residency requirement (meaning that you have to take 30 s.h. of courses from them; all of the work can be done entirely through distance learning).

I'm almost done with the BA in CS (double major with Psychology) at TESC, and it is a more flexible program, but I think that a BS in CS from a program with a residency requirement would probably look a little better. Troy State also has a BS in Psychology (and a few other majors) online, and will allow a double major in place of the required minor. I kind of wish that I'd seen this before, even though it would have taken me an extra 3-4 months. Maybe it's a new program, anyone know?

Related to Grantham, I'm curious what the acceptability would be of a DETC undergraduate degree for the purpose of entering an Australian Masters program. Does anyone know?

 

Hi Paul

The answer to your question is all of the above. When DETC accredits a school with a sleazy past like ACCIS they are creating their own reputation. It is clear that DETC is a valid but substandard accreditation when it comes to colleges and universities. If you doubt that name one top 10 U.S. school that is DETC accredited. What percentage of U.S. colleges are RA vs. DETC? What DETC school would turn down Regional Accreditation? It is clear that RA is the prefered choice. This doesn't mean that some DETC schools can't be the equal of RA schools in some instances. It just means that for the vast majority the RA school is the choice to make.

P.S. I have not heard anything negitive about Grantham and would have no problem selecting it if there was no comparable RA program available.

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Best Regards,
Dave Hayden

 

Since the USDoE recognized RA and DETC as accrediting bodies, and since DETC has accredited "sleezy" schools, is it not logical to assume that that RA schools are also no better,since the orb of authority is wielded by the USDoE?

 

I guess what I am trying to suggest here is that this is a little like "fruit from the poisened tree" If the tree is poisened, then the fruits of the tree would all be posisened.