DL PhD vs. Tenured Track

I am seriously considering applying to Saybrook Graduate School & Research Center (www.saybrook.edu) for September to enter the Organizational Systems PhD program. I have a couple of questions that I’m trying to answer as I make that decision and I was wondering if anyone here could add insight?

Can you tell me about experiences that regionally accredited DL PhD graduates have had in the pursuit of careers in traditional university environments and other fields? Have any had difficulty with becoming a tenured faculty in a traditional institution because their PhD was from a non-traditional institution? Have any had negative experiences with a PhD from a non-traditional institution? In general, have any graduates had difficulty with acceptance related to having a PhD from a school that is completely distance education and not associated with a traditional university? What do you say to those that do have the concern that a PhD from non-traditional institution is not equal to that of a traditional institution?

I apologize if these questions sound like I'm skeptical because I'm actually a huge advocate of distance education. I'm trying to make an informed decision about continuing my education into a distance education PhD and want to make sure I cover all of the bases before making such a huge decision. I appreciate any insight that you can offer and I want to thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

Enjoy,
Dave

 

Dave, I don't have a direct answer from experience, since I am in business, not academe. However, I attended The Fielding Institute (Human & Organizational Development Progrm, not their Psych Program) which is a sister institute to Saybrook as you know. At the time I was briefly entertaining the possibility of making a career shift to academia. So I often asked the question you pose here to the deans and faculty. The answers were not too encouraging really. My division dean's response was that "the jury is still out on that one", meaning that Fielding did not have many faculty placements (early 90s) and could not be very reassuring given the lack of a track record.

One of the faculty put my (your) question into the broader scope of the academic pecking order. He pointed out that he had a PhD from Boston University, but could not get a tenure track position at Babson College. In so many words, Babson sneered at the BU doctorate, even though he could demonstrate that he had studied with luminaries in his field. Given the snobbery, it mattered not at all.

Incidently, I have an MBA from Boston College and can give you the Boston microcosm to illustrate the pecking order there. It is as follows for business schools awarding doctorates: Harvard University, MIT Sloan, Boston College, Boston University, Northeastern University, and Suffolk University. Both Babson and Bentley Colleges are stand-alones, but rank very highly within their own category. The point here is that Harvard will likely hire an MIT Sloan PhD before a Boston College PhD, all other things being equal.

An associate dean of the BC Carroll School of Management had a slight different speculation on the question. He believed that although a Fielding PhD would not be viewed as highly as the Harvard DBA, BC PhD, or BU DBA, that the quality of the dissertation could likely count for a lot and make the Fielding candiate competitive.

As you know, over the past several years many new PhDs have been scrambling for positions, many without success. (Read the endless hardship stories in the Chronicle of Higher Education.) Competition is cut-throat, and the pecking order of schools looms large in that scenario at four-year universities. Too, many community colleges hire only master's degrees and not PhDs, as there is no research emphasis there and salaries are much lower. That's why numerous PhDs are instead seeking alternate employment avenues in industry, business, research, consulting, training, etc.

None of this is to discourage you. Where there's a will there's a way. I'm just sharing some of the insights I gathered along the way. My sense is that those inputs were not too promising for the nontraditional grad.

 

Whew. Great topic.

I attended a professional doctoral program (non-PhD) at a small private university for two years (before I became disgruntled and left). Although it was not really a DL program, it was non-traditional in that there were on-campus "intensive weekends" supplementing the off-campus weekly classes. I posed the same questions that you asked above to our faculty. I was given the following advice.

1. Publish in journals and present papers at conferences. (As many as possible, in the best journals and most prestigious conferences as possible.)

2. The quality of your dissertation MAY allow you to get their "attention" (no guarantees).

3. Focusing your studies in areas that are "in demand" increases the likelihood of breaking down the walls of snobbery (again... no guarantees).

The department chair was well-connected and was able to "hook-up" ambitious doctoral students with prominent professors in the field for their dissertation research. ONE of our graduates did in fact follow this track and he was hired tenure-track at a state university in a major city. Will he make tenure? He's only been on the job a few years... the jury is still out...

BruceP in Colorado Springs

 

Fielding is a sister institute with Saybrook? How do you figure?

 

Perhaps a point of reference to your questions about DL degrees and acceptance by traditional academe is the growing acceptance of research degrees, and particularly research doctorates.

A decade ago, they were considered second class credentials in Atlantic Canadian universities. However, the flexibility worked for many who were teaching, but did not have terminal qualifications.

Today, many have successfully completed, and much of the skepticism has lifted. Even one of most traditional of universities (my old alma mater) hired a faculty member with the condition that she complete just such a doctorate in order to become tenured.

As the degrees become more common, and individuals with degrees can hold their own in the traditional milieu, attitudes do change.

How long this will take with DL will depend greatly on how many such degrees are granted and where they are used (eg: academe or business).

Karen B

 

Dave - I've had first hand experience with this question based on my experience with an NSU DBA. I've seen similar experiences from folks with other DL credentials.

1. DL doctorates are, for the most part, destined for work in lower tier, teaching focused institutions. There may be an occasional exception, but every list of DL doctoral graduates I've seen supports this. The top tier or two of national universities (as classified by US News) are effectively off limits to DL folks. In business schools, most AACSB schools won't hire DL grads for tenure track. Exceptions? Sure, there are a few - but not many.

2. Some institutions won't hire DL grads. Period. They say so in their job ads (with words like "required PhD/DBA from an AACSB accredited school" or " required PhD/DBA from a full-time (non-DL) program". Or if you talk frankly with their deans you'll hear the same thoughts.

3. In some cases the sentiment is based on the feelings of a single administrator. In my own case, I was hired into a non-tenure track position, but after performing well was denied a tenure track position. Every other doctorally qualified person in the department was on tenure track. I was told that with a DL doctorate I wouldn't be permitted on the track. All of this was premised on one person's opinion. I moved to another institution - one that is actually better rated by USNews - and I'm on tenure track. Go figure.

4. You can certainly lessen this sentiment with a strong resume. Publications, teaching expeience, and industry experience are all helpful. In my case, I shifted from industry to teaching based on a combination of industry experience, publications, 17 years of adjunct teaching and a DL doctorate. The DL doctorate alone wouldn't have done it. But the absence of the DL doctorate would have prevented me from being hired.

Why is this so? Some of it may be academic snobbery. But I suspect that there are some real differences between DL and traditional programs. As I've said here before, I believe that my dissertation (and those of my DL peers) are certainly credible. However, they are probably a notch below graduates from top, full-time programs - particularly in the realm of originality. Frankly, there is no way that a part-time student working 3-5 years with part-time advisors and committee members can produce the same caliber dissertation as a full-time student who works 5 plus years at a top program. There is no substitute for time and effort. Throw in the difference in incoming quality (full-time programs typically require 580+ GMATs, while DL programs admit folks with 450+ GMATs), and you get the picture. Some very bright people do graduate from DL programs - but overall, the caliber is probably lower.

That's not to say that a DL doctorate is useless. For the purposes I've suggested above - teaching in a mid to lower tier institution - this preparation, combined with good industry and teaching experience is fine.

Regards - Andy

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Andy Borchers, DBA
NSU (1996)

 

Barry, I did not mean to imply a common ownership of Fielding and Saybrook, but was making a figurative statement, as I do see several similarities. 1) Both offer a PhD in Psychology; 2) both are accredited by WASC; 3) both have short residency requirements, Fielding a weeklong admissions workshop at Santa Barbara and Saybrook a five-day planning workshop in SF; 4) Saybrook allows students to design their programs, while Fielding has a KA structure but allows tremendous flexibilty on learning contracts within that structure; 5) Saybrook runs two one-week national meetings annually, and Fielding does a one-week Summer Session and a one-week Winter Research Session. 6) both are located in CA. 7) Both PhD programs take up to six years. Despite those basic commonalities, I'm sure there are distinctions in organizational culture and style. Perhaps you wanted to point out some of those differences?

Dave

 

Thanks Dave. I can't say I know much about Saybrook. I was just curious about your comment. I would point out that there are many similarities with doctoral programs built on adult learning models. Likewise, accreditation and historic academa practice would create significant similarities.

BTW (for other readers), Fielding also has (2) yearly research sessions - which means there are (4) formal face-to-face events yearly.

Barry Foster

 

Yes, that's true. Also Fielding establishes student learning clusters in areas where there is sufficient student interest to meet, exchange information, do assessesments, have guest speakers, etc. I'm not sure if Saybrook offers that benefit in its program.

Dave