"Baby Bar" results

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by John Bear, Jan 18, 2002.

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  1. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    It took three tries, but the California Bar has now sent me the most recent results (June 2001) on the “Baby Bar” exam, required of students at correspondence law schools. The surprise is, once again, the largest and most heavily financed of all, Concord. Despite their explanations of why their students did not do all that well the last time, and their determination to improve, Concord University did not improve over the previous year, and, at 42%, came in a distant third, on first-time takers, after Oak Brook (78%) and Taft (53%).

    For all takers (first, 2nd, 3rd time etc.), 74 of 250 passed (30%).
    For first time takers, 64 of 154 passed (42%)

    Individual results for all takers:
    Oakbrook, 9/15, 60%
    Taft, 12/31, 39%
    Concord, 37/102, 36%
    Southern California U., 4/13, 31%
    Saratoga, 2/7, 29%
    Lincoln, 5/35, 14%
    Northwestern California, 2/14, 14%
    British American, 3?26, 11%
    Newport, 0/3, 0%
    City U. L.A. 0/2, 0%
    Kensington, 0/1, 0%

    Between 50 and 60 percent of all law students eventually pass the Baby Bar, and of these, between 20 and 40 percent will pass the final Bar. Thus out of every 100 people who start a correspondence law program, it seems that 10 to 25 percent will eventually become lawyers.
     
  2. Howard

    Howard New Member

    And what does this tell us? That the correspondence D/L schools are less effective than the ABA or brick and mortar schools or that the students who go to the correspondence schools could not get into the ABA/Brick and Mortar schools and therefore will never equal the performance of the ABA/Brick and Mortar schools?

    Is there a way to determine this?

    ------------------
    Howard Rodgers
     
  3. Jonathan Liu

    Jonathan Liu Member

    Anyway, it seems that Concord does attract many students (102 to take the baby bar, woo!) When the student body is too big, it is hard to control entering students' quality. Any thought?

    ------------------
    Jonathan Liu
    http://www.geocities.com/liu_jonathan/distance.html
     
  4. Mike Albrecht

    Mike Albrecht New Member

    John,

    Did you get the results for non-correspondence schools? I would be interested in how other programs did also.

    Mike
     
  5. tcnixon

    tcnixon Active Member


    Three points:

    1. What an abysmal showing for correspondence laws schools, in general.

    2. 10 - 25 percent will become lawyers? I'm guessing that none of the schools will be including these statistics in their marketing.

    3. What this tells me is that it is best to be a conservative fundamentalist in order to pass the bar (note the continuing success for Oak Brook).


    Tom Nixon
     
  6. As has been pointed out many times previously, Oak Brook have mechanisms to weed out poor candidates up front. The others have more open admissions and pay for it in the statistics later.

    How do you compare schools under such circumstances?
     
  7. Nosborne

    Nosborne New Member

    I don't know if the Bar performance should be considered to be "abysmal". After all, D/L students DO have a harder row to hoe than resident students because legal education is only partly about acquiring an understanding of substantive law.
    Legal education is also about learning to communicate in a highly structured manner with lawyers and judges. By nature, law practice and traditional legal education are social activities but D/L tends to be solitary.
    I'd like to know whether there is a connection between the Bar pass rate for D/L students and those students' exposure to the actual practice of law, where socialization could take place.
    Nosborne
     
  8. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    That seems to suggest that if you fail to pass on your first attempt, then your chance of passing on subsequent attempts is awfully low. 10/96 (~10%)
     
  9. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Perhaps a lot of these distance law students enroll on a lark, so to speak. They are kind of exploring their options for a career change, and they think "Hey, I'll try law school!" The on-campus programs, particularly the full-time ones, demand a more serious commitment from their students. And Oakbrook, because of its religious/political mission, may attract a more determined kind of applicant as well.

    And what kind of internal selectivity is there, once a student is admitted? Are students who are not performing to a normal law school standard given effective feedback? Are those who don't improve invited to withdraw? Or are they all strung along in order to maintain enrollments and tuition flow, with the idea that everyone deserves a chance and that the baby bar will do the dirty work anyway?

    I'd be interested in knowing what Oakbrook's dropout rate is between admission and the baby bar.
     
  10. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Oak Brook requires a 5-day residency at the beginning of the program. That might scare off a lot of people on a "lark."

    Rich Douglas, convinced it is selectivity combined with methodology that makes their students successful, rather than an adherence to some quaint superstition.
     
  11. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    Bill Dayson: That seems to suggest that if you fail to pass on your first attempt, then your chance of passing on subsequent attempts is awfully low. 10/96 (~10%)

    John: Exactly right. I remember years ago, the Bar reported results based on number of the attempt -- which went as high as "seven or more." The success rate diminished with each successive taking, but it was always more than zero (which provides hope even for the near-hopeless).
     
  12. cbkent

    cbkent Member

    According to an article in the July 2001 issue of the California Student Law Journal, one Maxcy Dean Filer, Esq. attempted the CA Bar exam 48 times in 24 years before finally passing. The article states that his sons passed the exam before he did.

    The author of the article, Donald E. Baumeister, has made 28 attempts in 21 years, and has not passed the exam.

    Christopher
     
  13. tcnixon

    tcnixon Active Member


    And my wife's cousin who passed the bar on her seventh try was a beneficiary of that hope.

    Interestingly, she has been in solo practice for eight years and is reasonably successful (which says a lot considering how hard it is to be in solo practice in law these days in California).

    Btw, that was after getting kicked out of her first law school for too low a GPA. Talk about persistent.


    Tom Nixon
     
  14. Asymptote

    Asymptote Active Member

    Dustin likes this.
  15. TEKMAN

    TEKMAN Semper Fi!

    Isn't that that actual bar is much harder than the baby bar?
     
  16. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Dustin likes this.
  17. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Note that "reading" the law requires doing so under the supervision of an attorney for 864 hours per year for 4 years, but no study past the first year counts until the Baby Bar is passed. In Kardashian's case, one must assume she kept studying through her attempts, but those hours will not count.

    Passing the Baby Bar for those attending unaccredited law schools is impressive and those in correspondence programs even more so. Doing it by reading the law is really impressive.
     
  18. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Good for KK. I think that means that she gets credit for the first (of four) years of law study only. LATER AFTER LOOKING IT UP... No, Covid rules gave her four tries for full credit so she's golden.

    This is an important step. Most applicants don't pass the first time. KK is "reading the law" rather than going to any sort of law school. I don't know why someone in her position would choose this path but it's hard. Maybe even harder than a correspondence JD would be.

    If she keeps at it and shows the same level of commitment on the California General Bar exam, she will succeed.
     
    Rich Douglas likes this.
  19. newsongs

    newsongs Active Member

    The Oakbrook Law School seems the most unique of those originally mentioned. Their website notes:

    The mission of Oak Brook College of Law (OBCL) is to raise up attorneys who are equipped in every respect to enter careers and ministries for the glory of God. For this reason, it is of utmost importance to the faculty of Oak Brook College that our graduates are not saddled with student debt that will hinder their career and ministry decisions. The tuition and payment structure for both the Paralegal Certificate and Juris Doctor Degree program are intentionally designed to allow students to proceed in their education without requiring student loans.

    Our course structure makes it possible for students to be in the workforce while simultaneously pursuing their degrees.

    Does anyone on the board have any experience in the last few years with Oakbrook?
     
  20. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Oak Brook got considerable attention on this forum some years ago when their first baby bar and then bar results came out. The school did very well even compared with accredited schools (though that has not continued to the present time). In those days students had to attend live sessions at the beginning of each term. The school was pretty "Christian" but it offered a solid program.
     

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