Thread: Future of University of London?

So I had a fascinating discussion yesterday with a UK academic regarding the varied structures of UK universities and how they got that way. The part that will interest members here regards the large "federal university", the University of London. Anyone reading the recent Times Higher Ed Supplement will notice that several of the constituent colleges of U of L are startlingly highly rated on their own: University College London (#4), Imperial College London (#5), and King’s College London (#23). How remarkable that three such powerhouses are united in one university.

However, for several years, there has been a persistent report that those colleges are planning on going their own way. This may strike some of you more familiar with the UK scene than I as very old news indeed. I am told that the rumors are true and the breakup is accelerating due to some political considerations. One political party has essentially said that following the next elections they will seek to reduce funding for all universities and remove university status from the schools which were upgraded from polytechnics in the 1990’s. While that’s more of a threat than a promise, given the uncertainty of a future election (and the attention span of many politicians), this added pressure leaves some of the colleges, especially the recently upgraded ones, in a quandary: do they start the process of trying to go independent themselves, do they remain under the U of L banner, should some of them amalgamate under a new title, or what?

I’m especially curious to hear what anyone affiliated with the administration of the school has to say, both about the breakup, as well as the effect it would have on London’s long-established DL programs in divinity, business, English and foreign literature, etc.

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Originally Posted by Dave G.

However, for several years, there has been a persistent report that those colleges are planning on going their own way.

Imperial College left the University of London a couple of years ago and is now independent.

Here's a thread from maybe four years ago that went into the breakup of the U. of London in some detail, featuring posts from several people who work there. (You will need to scroll down about midway in the first page before the subject comes up.)

http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthr...light=Imperial

I think that it would be a tragedy if the U. of London breaks up and fragments.

What they should be doing is seeking greater synergies by working more closely together. It's simply ridiculous to have each of them duplicating library holdings or expensive seldom-used laboratory facilities, when their buildings sometimes stand literally adjacent to each other. Let one college maintain the philosophy library and make it into the best philosophy library on earth, instead of having half a dozen mediocre philosophy libraries. Let different colleges maintain the primary collections in other subjects. Then give students from all of the colleges access to all of the libraries. Let them more freely cross-register for each other's lectures and labs, and let professors advise students from different colleges. Encourage graduate students to attend talks and gatherings at all of the relevant colleges and to introduce themselves around so that everyone gets to know everyone.

The University of London has started doing some of that in philosophy, which is now being taught on more of an inter-college basis with students, while still being based at their own college, having access to faculty, lectures and happenings at all of the U. of London philosophy departments. There are also university-wide philosophy events. It's probably not an accident that some people currently think that London is better than Oxford in philosophy (an accomplishment).

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/philosophy/pros...philosophy.htm

The University of London could have a tremendous critical-mass, if they would just let it come together and start a chain reaction.

Originally Posted by BillDayson

Imperial College left the University of London a couple of years ago and is now independent.

Aha - thanks! (and good memory, b.t.w.)

Originally Posted by BillDayson

What they should be doing is seeking greater synergies by working more closely together . . . The University of London could have a tremendous critical-mass, if they would just let it come together and start a chain reaction.

Absolutely - seeing first hand the synergy created when departments make that effort to work together makes a hugely positive impression. I only hope U of L can harness their major potential before external forces disrupt things...

I wonder if a university downgraded to polytechnic status would still have authority to validate degrees for other schools? Interesting times...

I have wondered if part of the reason that the Open University (UK) decided to not make itself available to the USA was that they knew that the U of L was available in it's stead. If the U of L starts to come apart do you think that the OU might reconsider their availability to the USA?

Originally Posted by Dave G.

I wonder if a university downgraded to polytechnic status would still have authority to validate degrees for other schools? Interesting times...

I don't know, but I can't believe that anyone would seriously consider taking University status away from the former Polys. If I'm not mistaken that would affect something like 35 universities, can you imagine the backlash from students and alumni?

Originally Posted by novemberdude

I don't know, but I can't believe that anyone would seriously consider taking University status away from the former Polys. If I'm not mistaken that would affect something like 35 universities, can you imagine the backlash from students and alumni?

I agree, I don't think that this will ever happen, it would be a huge step back.

Originally Posted by novemberdude

I don't know, but I can't believe that anyone would seriously consider taking University status away from the former Polys. If I'm not mistaken that would affect something like 35 universities, can you imagine the backlash from students and alumni?

A case can probably be made for a couple of ideas:

First, the old polytechnics were created to teach things like engineering and technical subjects, and to coordinate closely with the needs of employers. But since they become universities, many of them seem to have migrated towards emphasizing politically trendy cultural and social studies with little vocational utility. Various politial figures have given speeches for years lamenting those changes and calling for these schools to return to something nearer their original purpose.

And second, in traditional British practice universities are doctoral research universities, period. It's only been the last few years that American-style bachelors/masters universities have started to appear in Britain, and that's still a very controversial development.

The United Kingdom has about 60 million people. When I last looked at the list of British universities, there were 154 names on it, virtually all of them publicly funded. While some of these things are specialized schools that have recently been given their own degree-granting powers (a number of art schools are now art universities, for example), at least a hundred are what appear to American eyes to be doctoral research universities.

Compare that to California, a state with a population approaching 40 million. California maintains 10 publicly-funded doctoral universities in the University of California . So guess where public universities are better funded and have better research facilities. Obviously private universities (something virtually unknown in Europe) push California's doctoral university numbers well above 10, but still nowhere near what we see in Britain.

So an argument can and has been made (often by the more prominent universities) that British research funding should perhaps be concentrated on the academically stronger half of UK universities, with the weaker half deemphasizing doctorates and placing greater emphasis on bachelors and masters degrees, assuming more of a California State University-like role.

I'm guessing that these sort of ideas being floated over there as topics for discussion (they've been talked about for years) is what's driving a lot of the shrieking about universities being forced to return to being polytechnics. Now that elections are nearing and it appears that the Torys might finally beat Labour, no doubt a bit of 'oh no, the-sky-is-falling' panic is agitating parts of British academia.

It's probably unlikely that these kind of changes would ever happen, but it wouldn't necessarily be an absolutely terrible thing if they did. Arguably, it might be a more effective use of resources and would better serve the needs of the British economy.

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Originally Posted by vadro

I agree, I don't think that this will ever happen, it would be a huge step back.

I think it’s a possibility, given that the economy is causing the government to take major steps back from public funding commitments elsewhere. Add to that that the Tories talking about downgrading the “New Colleges” were the same party that created them in the first place. I don’t think the 1990’s upgrading took realistic account of just how much time and resources have to be invested to create a major research university. If the government continues that investment commitment, it will be expensive.

Originally Posted by BillDayson

It's probably unlikely that these kind of changes would ever happen, but it wouldn't necessarily be an absolutely terrible thing if they did. Arguably, it might be a more effective use of resources and would better serve the needs of the British economy.

Yes, as the funding pool shrinks, the simplest way to maintain the budget and competitive edge of the major research universities is to cut the number of entities queuing up for funding. Another option apparently being floated by Oxford/Cambridge is going private. When I heard this, I initially didn’t take it very seriously. However, both schools apparently think they have enough alumni support to raise funds on the scale of Harvard, and could do better than they currently are. I objected that their leaving the public system would involve major changes in law, but it was pointed out to me that both schools have significant alumni presence in Parliament and thought the payoff might be worth the (huge) effort.

To return to the original point, though, I hope U of L weathers the storm. Ever since I heard about their external degree program, I’ve been a fan.