Foreign degrees in theology/religion

Hello All,

I am another of the often lurkers that is interested in graduate studies in either religion or theology. My question to anyone that has completed a foreign religious degree (or anticipates doing so): What marketability do you expect from your degree in the US? For instance, are the majority of you looking for personal edification, pastoral positions, or academic positions?

I guess what I'm trying to justify in my own mind is why anyone stateside would pursue a foreign religious degree.

I appreciate any responses,
Steven King

 

Steven,
I am a pastor considering a foreign theology degree. The reasons are simple:
1) It is much cheaper than the US.
2) I can do the entire degree my distance learning.

As long as the degree comes under GAAP I see no problems. I do not plan to teach in an academic setting.

Barry

 

Steven,

I am strongly considering pursuing a foreign degree, for the reasons Barry mentioned. I feel called to both pastoring and teaching.

I was also wondering if a foreign degree would be accepted by U.S. colleges/universities/seminaries as a teaching credential.

I hope someone can answer this.

 

I am interested in religious studies, and have certainly given thought to foreign degrees, so I'll give you my thoughts. But I am probably pretty atypical. I'm 52, am not primarily interested in a degree for vocational purposes, and probably most importantly, I'm not a Christian.

Certainly not a pastoral position in my case. As far as pastoral marketability is concerned, I would suspect that would be a denomination-by-denomination thing. Probably anyone considering a religious vocation is already in touch with his or her church, so they would need to talk the whole thing over very carefully with the church before commiting to any university program. Many denominations may want you to attend their own seminary, others will want you to have particular kinds of practical experiences, still others will be very concerned with your proposed school's doctrinal statement.

My own motivation for advanced study is almost entirely what you call "personal edification". That being the case, I think that the 'foreign/domestic' issue is simply one of mechanics. If a foreign school is going to want me to travel to South Africa or to Australia for short residencies, then I would probably reject it as impractical.

Far more important to me is the question of the school's academic interests and strengths. I'm not interested in M.Div programs at all. I'm not really interested in most of the conventional theological subjects. Biblical studies are really not my thing either.

My interests are in fundamental issues in religious epistemology. I am interested in the nature of religious experience, in the cognitivity of religious language, in the grounding of religious truth claims, in 'negative theology' and in comparative mysticism generally.

More particularly, I'm interested in late antiquity and in the transition from the classical pagan world to the Christian medieval world. I'm interested in popular encounters with the divine, in holy men, miracles and relics. The subject of 'acheiropoeitic images', the class of "miraculous images" that were relatively common in late antiquity and of which the shroud of Turin is a survivor, particularly fascinate me.

I'm also vitally interested in present day quasi-religious movements such as the widespread belief in UFOs and in parapsychology. I am interested in the occult tradition and its historical roots.

OK, I'm coming to this with a lot of ideas and a lot of intellectual baggage. My choice of a graduate program would be largely governemd by what kind of interest the faculty show in those kinds of things. Pretty clearly, most evangelical programs would not be interested in me nor vice-versa. There are a lot of religious studies programs out there, even at secular universities, that offer all kinds of courses in the gospels, in the prophets and in things like religious ethics or feminist theology. But they slough off Buddhism with one course, and never even touch my issues.

I should say that if I do go on to a doctoral program (less than 50% chance) it will probably be on-campus at the California Institute of Integral Studies in San Francisco. Their 'philosophy, cosmology and consciousness' doctoral concentration seems open to my stuff, and I am very impressed with their work on Mithraism.

As far as teaching goes, I am not primarily motivated by that, but I wouldn't want to shut that door. I would love to take an early retirement or at least cut back to part time, and teach and write off and on. For a guy like me, adjunct teaching jobs would be perfect, in fact more desirable than full time. For that reason, any school I enroll in would have to be RA or its foreign equivalent.

But the main consideration would be on the subject matter rather than on my school's nationality or even on its prestige. My emphasis would be on learning about my stuff, thinking about it a lot, and perhaps publishing any valuable ideas I might have. I would be a whole package, consisting of that degree, those publications, and a specialty that is probably unusual and which may or may be interesting to somebody.

I think that if a foreign DL program offers accessibility for those in remote locations or with job commitments, if it offers a program with strengths in one's areas of research interest, and if it offers a degree that has recognized accreditation equivalence and some amount of academic credibility, it should definitely be considered.

At least by somebody like me.

 

Russell,

So, I assume a person could teach at an accredited U.S. college or seminary with a doctorate from Potchefstroom or UNISA. Correct?

 

Folks are; I know of at least one guy in Louisiana teaching with a Potch doctorate, and another guy in Texas teaching with a UNISA doctorate. I could probably find their names if you'd like.

I'd imagine it would be somewhat harder to get a teaching job with a nonresidential South African doctorate than it would be to get one with a residential U.S. doctorate, but it should be doable, all other things being equal.


Peace,

Tom

 

Tom, and Russell,

Thanks!

For college/seminary teaching purposes, does it matter what the gaduate degrees are--that is, does it make any difference if the nastre's degree is an MA, MAR, Th.M, MPhil, or if the doctorate is a Ph.D, Th.D, or that UNISA degree, the DLitt. et Phil. ?

 

Michael:

Perhaps the standard terminal degree for teaching would be the Ph.D./Th.D., however, faculty serve with all the above degrees as their highest degree. For example, many undergrad programs are taught by professors with only the MA. One usually teaches in the field of study in which the degree was earned, especially at the graduate level.

Each specific degree has its own emphasis, however, there are also similarities, e.g., one can earn the MA with an emphasis in Religion. The MAR by its very title, is a Master of Arts in Religion. One may earn the M.Div. with an emphasis in specific areas, while the Th.M. is a program which allows detailed research in a specific area, which could also be religion. So, each degree is unique in that each has a specific emphasis.

Russell

 

You are quite welcome!

Hmmm... This is an excellent question. Going at it piece by piece:

MA: A fairly standard credential; speaking as a guy who just finished one, it can get you a job at a community college or, if you're known for something else, a job teaching at a four-year college. Not normally a quick route to anything, but can be formidable if combined with something else (good connections, a solid publication history, or whatnot).

MAR: Essentially an M.A. in religion, but significant because it's usually more involved than that, with 45 sh rather than 30-36 sh of credit; also significant because it is, I believe, the only M.A. program that can be accredited by the ATS.

Th.M.: I would consider this the standard seminary teaching credential, but ordinarily folks in the U.S. who possess a Th.M. already possess an M.Div.; I've been told that an M.Div. is pretty much a prerequisite to seminary teaching, unless (here again) you're known for something else, have good connections, have published some interesting work, &c.

M.Phil.: I have no idea; in the U.S., the only M.Phil. I've heard of is the credential awarded for a student who completes doctoral coursework but has to drop out before his dissertation is approved (Harvard, I think, uses it for this purpose). Overseas it's essentially a master's level research doctorate, taking 2-3 years to complete and involving about a 30-45,000 word dissertation. Very unusual to see anyone stateside with an M.Phil., but in a perfect world it would be recognized as a "higher" master's (up there with the Th.M., M.Div., etc.)

Ph.D.: The standard secular university teaching credential; if you're going to teach religious studies as opposed to theology, this is probably a much better bet than a Th.D. For my part, I'm leaning towards the Ph.D. because it would be a better writing credential ("Tom Head, Ph.D." is just more adaptable than "Tom Head, Th.D.")

Th.D.: The post-Th.M. credential, meaning that a standard route to it might be BA --> MDiv --> ThM --> ThD. IMHO, one of the highest of the doctorates, but not generally very useful as a first doctorate for folks who would like to teach at a secular four-year university. The highest seminary credential available, but might be conspicuous if the holder does not also possess an M.Div. (or then again, might not be; I've heard conflicting views on this).

DLitt et Phil: Effectively equivalent to the Ph.D., and I have been told by three independent sources that it's actually kosher to refer to a DLitt et Phil as a Ph.D. in the United States; I don't see how, though, as the expanded abbreviations are simply not identical (I can see referring to a D.Ed. as an Ed.D. or a D.Th. as a Th.D. or even a D.Phil. as a Ph.D., but "Doctor of Literature and Philosophy" is not the same thing as "Doctor of Philosophy" in my book). Anyway, most folks looking over your credentials -- if they're familiar with international standards -- should regard the DLitt et Phil as being the South African arts faculty version of the Ph.D. (science faculties still use "Ph.D.," and sometimes theology faculties do as well).

So in terms of marketability, I would make wild guesses along these basic lines:

Best Doctorate for Secular University Teaching: Ph.D. or DLitt et Phil, but a Th.D. could still work (especially if you're teaching at a religious university)

Best Doctorate for Seminary Teaching: Th.D., but a Ph.D. could still work

Best Master's for Secular University Teaching: M.A., then M.A.R., then Th.M., then M.Phil.

Best Master's for Seminary Teaching: Th.M., then M.A.R., then M.A., then M.Phil.

Which is not to say that you might not very well get a very good seminary post with an MA, or a very good secular university post with a ThM; it all depends on your individual circumstances.

Good luck!


Peace,

Tom

 

There's a similar funny thing with foreign MBs (Bachelor of Medicine)--the degree used to practice medicine in most of the world.

A US DO (Osteopath) cannot refer to themselves as a MD (even though the training is essentially equivalent these days, and many/most DOs did MD residencies). A foreigner with a Bachelors of Medicine is allowed to refer to themselves as an MD.

very strange....

-dave

 

I believe that this complicates the requirements of most schools, and would formulate a much simpler list . . .

Best degrees for secular university teaching: M.A., followed by Ph.D. Anything else is icing on the cake.

Best degrees for seminary teaching: M.Div., optionally followed by any advanced degree - second masters such as a Th.M. or S.T.D., or either an academic (Ph.D./Th.D.) or professional (D.Min.) doctorate. (The S.T.D., an academic degree, is found primarily in main line as opposed to evangelical seminaries.)

Seriously, secular universities generally require secular degrees. Yes, they may be in religion, but the degrees should be academic rather than professional. In most cases, a Ph.D. will be required, but the Th.D. is also recognized as an academic degree (usually, though not always, granted by a divinity school attached to a university, as opposed to a freestanding seminary).

Seminaries, on the other hand, are in the business of preparing pastors, although non-pastoral degrees have become somewhat of a cash cow for them. Therefore, most seminaries will require an M.Div., period. Those that grant doctorates will want someone with a doctorate, but it can be a D.Min. just as easily as a Ph.D.

General principle: It depends, in part, on what you want to teach. If you want to teach academic subjects such as biblical languages, hermeneutics, etc., go for the academic doctorate. If you want to teach professional subjects such as practical theology or homiletics, go for the D.Min. (And, to throw in another curve, if you want to teach missions, go for a D.Miss. Seriously.)

But for a seminary, the basic teaching credential is the good ol' M.Div., which can optionally be followed by anything. Remember, seminaries may offer the M.A., M.A.R., or Th.M., but for teaching in a seminary, the M.Div. is the cornerstone.

Finally, remember that seminaries tend to hire their own. If you earn a doctorate from Liberty University (a Fundie Baptist school), do not expect to be hired by the Iliff School of Theology (a liberal Methodist school). If you want to teach at Liberty, don't earn an M.Div. from the Yale Divinity School. With one exception: evangelical faculties tend to earn their doctorates from liberal schools. (The theory is that you should get your M.Div. from a school with which you are doctrinally compatable, but by the time you go for a Ph.D. you already know how to stand firm in your faith, etc. In that sense, there is much more liberal bias toward conservative credentials than vice versa.)

(You may ask, from where do I get this perspective? From teaching at a regionally and ATS-accredited seminary as well as a regionally and AABC-accredited Bible college for six years. And from being told by the seminary that I would never be invited onto full-time faculty because I did not have an M.Div., which was fine since I didn't want to be full time. So how did I do it? Simple: my M.A. is in theology and law, and my and Ph.D. is in religion and law, and there's a real shortage of people who can do what I do - teach church-state issues and legal issues/risk management for pastors and counselors. Interestingly, all of my degrees are from secular schools, my graduate credentials are from very liberal programs, yet I have taught primarily at Fundie schools. Besides, I'm Jewish, and any Christian school would hire me so they can say, "Yaaasssss! We got us a Jew!")

 

I was hoping you'd weigh in on this one, and you're right all across the board; the only thing I'd mention is that in Roman Catholic circles, an S.T.D. is definitely considered Th.D.-level (if you look at the theology department of a good Jesuit school like Fordham or Spring Hill, you'll find heaps of S.T.D.'s and probably very few Ph.D.'s, and even fewer Th.D.'s).


Peace,

Tom

 

Tom is quite correct. Moreover, you will often find, even at Roman Catholic colleges and universities in the United States, that the S.T.D.'s held by faculty have been granted by pontifical universities in Rome. A special perk to the priesthood, to some degree.

And, for any neophytes, "S.T.D." means Doctor of Sacred Theology, an academic (as opposed to professional) doctorate. It does not stand for the usual medical term.

 

There are at least two professors at my alma mater- Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary- an ATS and RA school, who hold their Ph.D's from UNISA.

 

Reformed Theological Seminary has a faculty member whose Ph.D. is from Potchefstroom.

Russell

 

Of course, one also holds a PhD from UNC-Chapel Hill, and the other happens to be the wife of the Seminary's president. Those considerations aside, it is true that UNISA graduates do hold academic posts at a multitude of reputable theological institutions throughout the US, Canada, the UK, the Phillipines, and Australia. At last count, I had found a total of nearly 30 UNISA doctorate-holders serving as professors at fully-accreditted institutions in these countries. That speaks well of UNISA's global reputation.

 

I believe that there is at least one faculty member-an evangelism professor who holds his only doctorate from UNISA. If it is not his only it was his first because I was there when they announced it in chapel.

 

That's great! I always get excited when I see UNISA doctorate holders gaining positions like this!

By the way, I've been on the SEBTS campus before. I used to live in Va. Beach. My next door neighbor was a commutor student at SEBTS.