"Defending" Degrees

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by David Yamada, Jan 14, 2002.

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  1. David Yamada

    David Yamada New Member

    A phrase that commonly pops up on this board, often in the context of non-RA DL degrees, but also in the context of RA DL degrees (witness recent discussions of Nova Southeastern and Univ. of Phoenix), is that of having to "defend" one's degree. It is usually a primary reason why someone is urged not to pursue a particular degree program.

    I hear it frequently *outside* the world of DL. In the legal profession in which I teach and work, students and graduates of lower-ranked ABA law schools often feel like they are being asked to "defend" their degrees when interviewing with extremely selective employers. A more specific example from where I live: Students at Boston College and Boston University law schools feel like they have to defend why they went there as opposed to Harvard; students at Suffolk and New England law schools feel like they have to defend why they went there as opposed to Boston College and Boston University. And so on. Of course, this defending does not take place at every interview; in many cases, their degree will be regarded with respect. But that is the way the mindset endures.

    I think it can be fairly said that virtually anyone who earns a DL degree, RA or not, may someday be called upon to "defend" that degree, especially if the degree serves as threshold qualification for a certain job. Certainly that is a primary reason why non-RA options should be considered very carefully, and in most instances are not advisable. But even among RA DL options, there is a level of work and other opportunities for which a DL degree will not be an asset, e.g., holders of RA DL doctorates who want to break into 4-year colleges and research universities.

    So I'm curious . . .

    What are the "glass ceilings" for DL degree holders?

    How long will it be, if ever, until DL degree holders don't have to hold their breath waiting for some question that reflects a very dubious regard for DL degrees?

    How does one best "defend" a DL degree, without sounding defensive?
     
  2. Nosborne

    Nosborne New Member

    The only time I had to "defend" a D/L diploma was in 1981 when I started to look for work in television. I wanted a technical job in electronics and I had just completed a diploma course in electronics engineering from the (NHSC accredited) Cleveland Institute of Electronics. I later completed their A.A.S. degree as well and heartily recommend the program.
    My potential employer, the Chief Engineer for a TV station in Albuquerque, asked me "That's correspondence, isn't it?" I said "Yes." And that was the end of it. I worked there for three years getting regular promotions and pay raises until I went to law school.
    On the one hand, they seemed completely accepting of my training. I was promoted as fast as, or faster than, others whose training came from the local vo-tech.
    On the other hand, though, in those days you had to have an FCC First Class license to do the work, so I don't know whether they focused on my license and ignored the diploma, or what.
    Also, CIE was started in 1934 for the express purpose of training broadcasting technicians so it's very well known in the field.
    Once I acquired some experience, the source of my training became gradually less relevant.
    BOY, that was a neat job!
    Nosborne
     
  3. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    A few thoughts....

    As a gradute of USNY/Regents (BS in 1980 and BA in 1981), I've never, ever been asked to defend my degree in any way. I've always suspected that anyone looking just didn't know what they were looking at. The only time my bachelor's degrees came under any kind of scrutiny was when I was accepted into San Diego State's MBA program. They wouldn't give me credit for my U/G business credits by testing (which was almost all of them, and even though I majored in business), and were going to require I complete the entire first year pre-requisite program.

    Getting to an interview for a competitive position usually means you've made it past some screening process that weeded out many other applicants. How many times will the holder of a DL and/or non-RA degree get screened out, and thus not be in a position to even defend the degree?

    DL degrees from brick-and-mortar schools are generally indistinct from their residentially-earned counterparts. Thus, it is the attendees of purely-DL schools that face this dilemma. Accreditation mitigates much of this; HR personnel are going to look first in guidebooks of accredited schools. Finding the school will usually end the investigative process. Not much to defend after that.

    I've never experienced anyone going over my college transcripts as part of the employment process (or even requesting them). Other than submitting them to the Air Force when I was commissioned, I've never had an employer ask for them (other than universities where I've taught). Let's see, that's Xerox, a trade school, Prudential, CCA, a hospital, and AT&T.

    The only other time I had any substantive discussion regarding the source of my bachelor's degrees was with Air Force personnel officials responsible for recording officers' education levels. They coded me as a graduate of SUNY Albany. Despite my many protests, I couldn't get them to realize that I earned my degree from USNY Regents. One clerk went so far as to insist he was correct and that I simply didn't know what school I'd attended. I even pointed out to him that I'd never been to Albany--except on graduation day to receive my first bachelor's. In fact, I was stationed 175 miles away while earning that degree--a helluva commute. No dice; bureaucracy won, and I spent my career as a SUNY graduate. Geez, you'd think they'd at least make it RPI or somewhere else cool.

    Rich Douglas
     
  4. simon

    simon New Member

    Response: Who says one needs to defend their DL degree so furiously as you indicate! If a job candidate is savvy, well prepared in interviewing techniques, possesses the interactional and networking skills and personality dynamics that exude confidence and ambition, the format in which this person obtained their degree can be of lesser significance than
    you portend. Yes, there is currently questions being posed re: DL docrtorates by employers but the primary concern one should have is if they possess one that is unaccredited since this is where the potential for major problems may manifest itself.
     
  5. Ike

    Ike New Member

    I think that a doctorate earned through DL will continue to be defended until DL is accepted widely by the average person in the street (not just in the tradition academic circles). Bachelor's and master's degrees earned through DL are less attacked and less defended probable because the holders of these degrees do not change their titles. Eyebrows are raised when a person's title changes from Mr. to Dr. (or when PhD is listed after a person's name).
     
  6. David Yamada

    David Yamada New Member

    I agree with you re the doctorate. As I've mentioned on this board before, I decided after much consideration to pursue a non-RA Ph.D. program at the Western Institute for Social Research. However, assuming that I finish the degree, I will not advertise myself as a "Ph.D." on my c.v. or listings; I'm doing it for personal enrichment. I'm tempted to say that I wouldn't advertise even an *RA* DL doctoral/equivalent degree within academic circles (e.g., Ph.D. or LL.M.) simply because it's more likely that I would have to explain it rather than benefit from it.

    Could we also say that titles such as MBA and JD raise similar concerns? I consider the U of Phoenix, which seems to be the lightning rod for criticism of low/limited residency MBA programs. For the sake of its students, I hope that its RA status will help them get over the "credential hump," but if the school continues to attract the kind of negative publicity it's been getting as the out-front institution on for-profit ed., it may make life difficult for its own graduates.
     
  7. Andy Borchers

    Andy Borchers New Member



    ------------------
    Andy Borchers, DBA
    NSU (1996)
     
  8. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Probably not in our lifetimes. Until the day that DL is perceived as being "the very best", there will always be somebody above you in the degree-prestige pecking order.

    The way I see it, distance learning is just another thing that those who are so inclined can use to differentiate themselves from you. It's just another variable in a much larger process.

    I think that distance learning is making tremendous strides. It is already on most people's radar screens, and there is a lot of interest in it among the public. So while we will inevitably run into negative perceptions, we will also encounter sincere interest. For everyone that responds to your DL degree with a flat "oh...", there will be somebody else who brightens up and starts asking you all kinds of questions about it.

    Concerning "glass ceilings", I think they exist but are less prevalent than many fear.

    Think about the characteristics of DL graduates. They are usually older individuals who most often are already employed. So when you take your DL degree and apply for a job, you may have a less impressive name on your diploma than another applicant, but you may also have more impressive experience. What's more, you will have shown continuing interest in education and a willingness to expend considerable effort in developing your potential. Those are definite plusses.

    We also need to remember that many of us have traditional on-campus degrees as well, and have used DL to earn a subsequent masters degree or something. We present ourselves to employers as a complete package.

    There may be employers out there that will only consider "top tier" prestige graduates for executive positions. But for every one of them, there will be a Larry Lee, retired CEO and Chairman of the Board of Western Airlines and a CSU Dominguez Hills alumnus. BTW, I just read, in US News I believe, that the current President of Southwestern Airlines only has an associate's degree. Commerce Secretary Paul O'Neill is a CSU Fresno alumnus. Secretary of State Colin Powell was an ROTC cadet at resolutely blue collar CCNY.

    These kind of stories are common among entrepeneurs. The late Dave Thomas, founder of Wendy's and a latter day TV star, was a high school drop out who only got his GED a few years ago. Bill Gates' and Steve Jobs' stories don't need retelling.

    Degrees don't determine destiny.

    Could it actually be the case that the "high class" degrees (whether in terms of social class or tier ranking) might close doors as well as open them in normal employment situations? Employers often hire the employees that they are comfortable with. If the applicant has a much more prestigious degree than his/her boss, might some employers fear that the employee will develop an attitude or even be insubordinate? My point is that there may be some reverse discrimination at work out there too.

    That suggests that as distance education grows and graduates of the countless DL MBA programs become ever more common in companies, employers will be growing more and more comfortable with them as applicants. The employer may have earned a DL MBA him/her self, or else have somebody already working there that did.
     
  9. Andy Borchers

    Andy Borchers New Member

    Sorry for the last posts - I managed to lose my typing.

    I suspect that the glass ceilings will be in place for academic positions for a long time to come. Sure - barriers are coming down, but they are real and will remain so for some time. My NSU DBA opened up some doors for me - but also closed some others. There are several schools that I know of that won't consider DL doctorates. Period. Some even put it in their employment ads.

    Why? Frnakly, the DL doctorates we talk about here typically aren't as rigorous as top flight traditional programs.

    How do I know this?

    First, consider admission standards. Virtually all traditional PhD/DBA programs in business, for example, require 580+ GMAT scores. Most of the DL business doctorates we talk about here don't even require the GMAT or accept scores as low as 450. While there are many bright DL business students - some of whom could gain admission in traditional programs - there are many that aren't as bright. When you consider that for-profit DL progrmas don't .... Let's not get started on this!

    Second, consider dissertation quality. When I consider my NSU dissertation I firmly believe (as did my outside committee members) that I did a creditable job. But I'm not about to kid myself. Working 4.5 years part-time with limited research support doesn't compare to what a full-time grad from the University of Michigan is going to produce. I had to fit research around a family and career. I had two part-time committee members (along with one full-time guy on campus). The UoM guys have five years of full time study to earn their degree. They have a committee of full-time faculty that are more actively involved in research than mine were. They typically have research support.

    I have published some of the results of my dissertation in peer reviewed proceedings and have been able to publish in middle tier journals, But I don't bother trying to publish in the top journals. Folks - it is pretty much a closed club.

    What really alarms me is when I see threads talking about how some DL doctorates can be earned in 2 years or prior credits can be applied. My fear is that DL programs will "devalue" the currentcy and make the reputation of DL programs even worse.

    Where DL programs do compare more favorably is in relation to lower tier schools. For example, a PhD/EdD from NSU and a similar degree from, say, Middle Tennessee State may not be that different.

    Thanks - Andy



    ------------------
    Andy Borchers, DBA
    NSU (1996)
     
  10. defii

    defii New Member

    While enrolled in CSUDH HUX program some years ago, I kept running into an exchange like the following:

    So, you're in graduate school?
    Yes!
    Where?
    Cal State Dominguez Hills
    Isn't that in Southern California?
    Yes!
    I thought you live in Northern California?

    I discontinued the program after about one year. It wasn't so much a matter of "defending" distance learning. It was a matter of many people not yet understanding the world of distance education.

    After a number of academic missteps, I am comfortable with the idea that my core education, undergraduate and graduate, were done in residence at private and public RA institutions. Now that I have a family, doctoral work (in my thinking) is going to be by distance learning. Since I have adjunct teaching aspirations, I will simply have to learn to live with the limitations inherent in the path I will have chosen.

    Regards,


    ------------------
    David F
     
  11. David Yamada

    David Yamada New Member

    Bill, your comments raise another important issue: This is a gross generalization, subject to many exceptions, but . . . I hazard a guess that the most successful DL degree holders are those who have an independent, entrepreneurial streak. Their degrees help them meet certain minimal qualifications or give them a minimal level of credentialing, but it is their drive, creativity, and independence that distinguishes them. Those who rely on DL degrees to be the "equivalent" of their residential counterparts but who do not bring something extra to the table are likely to enjoy considerably less success than similarly credential graduates of residential schools.

    That's why I'm not as quick to jump on the bandwagon of taking shots at the John Grays and Barbara DeAngeliss of the world. Say what you will about the saga of their doctoral alma mater, Columbia Pacific. Nevertheless, I bet you will find a ton of enterprising individuals who used their CPU credentials -- however less-than-wonderful they may appear with the gift of hindsight -- to help them engage in cutting edge projects and endeavors.

    Are Gray and DeAngelis really any better or worse than other self-help gurus because of the source of their degrees? I confess some skepticism toward that end of the pop psych world, but by conventional standards, I'd say they're pretty damn successful.

    Anyway, to get back to my point: I concur with Bill that DL degrees may never have the shine of certain traditionally-earned degree programs. And I agree with Andy that the workload and quality of student work in many DL programs may fall short of that expected in certain residential degree programs. In that sense, DL degree holders may find certain doors closed (or almost shut). But for self-starters with that extra spark who may not feel comfortable in a traditional academic setting, or who may not be able to pursue a residential program for various personal reasons, DL may be the best "place" for them and we should be encouraging of DL to push the envelope as much as possible for those folks.
     
  12. Ike

    Ike New Member


    (not just in the traditional academic circles)

    I wish I could edit it.
     
  13. Tom

    Tom New Member

    One cannot rely solely on a RA degree to propel his/her success in their respective career of their choice. Distance Learning has been gaining acceptance not only in the business world, but also in the Academic Arena.

    In accordance to Bear’s Guide To Earning Degrees by Distance Learning 14th, Edition, (Page 12, Much depends on the degree itself, and the reasons for wanting it. If for instance, you need to have a bachelor’s degree to get a job promotion, or salary increase, then an accredited degree from Excelsior College, earned entirely by correspondence course is exactly as good as any bachelor’s degree earned by sitting in classrooms for four or five or six year at a state university.) I think this quotation can also be applied to the Master/ Doctoral degree programs earned through a distance-learning component

    I am proud to say that I am a graduate of Nova Southeastern University, (MPA ’97) and my degree has severed me well in my career and it has provide me with the opportunity to teach at some of the State/Private Universities in the South Florida Area. In doing so, my credentials have never been challenged in either business/academic arenas. Critics have been around before are time and they are here to stay. For instance, perhaps one may encounter an Ivey Leaguer of some sort that may look down upon all Small/Large State/Private Distance/Non-Traditional Colleges/Universities. The question that should be examine is “ Why are some DL graduates teaching at some of the best Universities in the nation such as Harvard/Yale George Washington, Ball State DePaul Universities?” I am not naïve to say that a Brick and Mortar Ph.D. will have a better chance in getting hired at a prestigious school, but my career experience and credentials will not just be waived off simply because I graduated from a non-traditional school. Bottom line, “What do you have bring to the table." One common component that I have noticed about critics that criticizes Non/Traditional degree programs as being inferior, they are either individuals that do not have a degree of any kind or they do have a degree (Bachelor Master/Doctoral) and they are not successful in their chosen career.

    Most career advancement in either business/academic arena are depended upon real life/work experience as a rule of measurement and how well one is willing to market his/her credentials. Politics plays a major role in achieving success; “You need to get to know the Key Players”. This practice is true in any arena that one may encounter. Furthermore, attitude is everything!! If one accepts that fact that his/her degree is inferior to other/same degree programs earned via Traditional Methods, one does not stand a chance in getting hired anywhere. Positive thinking and attitude does make a difference.

    In my humble opinion, it is not logical to compare Non-RA Accredited verse D.L. RA Accredited colleges/universities to assume that they are synonymous in meaning. There are employers that will not consider the acceptance of Non-RA degree. Furthermore, I do respect those that have chosen a Non-RA verse RA school for their own intensions.


    Tom
     
  14. LOL!

    (sorry, couldn't resist)
     
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Your point is well taken, Tom, and you are correct in your observation. One must accept the fact that academic bias, arrogance and differentiation is one of life's givens. The old "mine is bigger/better/more prestigious than yours" will continue to plague academe. I do think that DL as a substantive method of earning one's degree is becoming more prevalent.

    I remember in the 70's when someone spoke of earning a degree via evening classes (or heaven forbid "night school"), it carried a heavy stigma. Now, many institutions offer evening/Saturday/Sunday/on-line classes, and very little is thought about it. So I think that DL as a credible method of learning is gaining acceptance, however, there will indeed be the diehards, the good ole boys club, or the "we ain't never done it like that before" group--all of whom will resist the inevitable.

    Russell
     
  16. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    In what is still, I think, the only major study of the acceptability of distance degrees in academic and business worlds, Sosdian and Sharp in the late 1970s, asking primarily about Edison and what was to become Regents/Excelsior, determined not only that 100% of the eighty-something business people interviewed accepted them, but some went out of their way to add that they prefer such degrees, since it shows the people are capable of working independently, etc.

    Is it possible that things have gotten worse in the 20+ years since S & S? If so, it might be because awareness of bad schools is so much higher now, polluting the goodness of the good schools.
     
  17. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    When Marina meet with her doctoral committee for the final time at Vanderbilt, her chairman began, "Marina Bear is here to defend her dissertation." Marina interrupted him: "No, I'm here to explain my dissertation." The five white males, two of whom had actually read her work, were quite taken aback.
     
  18. I made some comments somewhat relevant to this discussion in another thread, but allow me to repeat myself here…

    I wonder if the distinction between distance and residential education is blurring? Last year, I took a dual-mode (on-campus and distance) class at an Ivy League school, and the on-campus students complained bitterly that they could not use the streaming video that we DL students used. It was clear to me that the benefits of watching (and perhaps questioning) a talking head “in the flesh” were largely overshadowed by the convenience of the video stream (e.g. view when desired, pause when desired, replay as desired). In a similar vein, friends at Stanford have told me that the “online classroom” is preferred by many on-campus students (in addition to the Silicon Valley participants for whom it was designed and implemented). I can envisage universities increasingly using technology to deliver lectures to all students, and the real difference between distance education and on-campus education will primarily involve mechanisms for out-of-class interactions between students and between students and faculty. And here again the distinctions are blurring, since every on-campus class that I have participated in during recent years has at least had a web site and a bulletin board or discussion list to facilitate communications. We can already see some of the residential programs adopting the best of the approaches currently associated with distance education providers. And we can envisage the distance programs developing creative and increasingly functional mechanisms to allow the open exchange of ideas and the kind of intellectual interaction and engagement that are the hallmark of the great residential universities. Admittedly the challenge is enormous. Kader Asmal has written that scholarship, research, teaching and service need to be valued equally in higher education, and indeed the graduate students in the best U.S. residential universities are actively apprenticed in each of these roles. The distance education institutions have a way to go to match their traditional counterparts in this regard. Nevertheless, I see a day in the not distant future when a book entitled “Guide to Earning Degrees by Distance Learning” will be irrelevant – even meaningless. Then John Bear can finally and truly retire.

    And we will be able to identify and eliminate degree mills with a simple incantation: Vade retro Satana! Nunquam suade mihi vana! Sunt mala quae libas. Ipse venena bibas!
     
  19. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    Gert suggests, "And we will be able to identify and eliminate degree mills with a simple incantation: Vade retro Satana! Nunquam suade mihi vana! Sunt mala quae libas. Ipse venena bibas!"

    I am envisioning all 9,000 students at St. Benedict University chanting this, as the Duke Blue Devils try for the winning field goal with four seconds left on the clock.
     
  20. Gus Sainz

    Gus Sainz New Member

    If only it were so simple… Alas, we frequently find (and it is one of the ways to identify a degree mill) that they have indeed imbibed profusely of their own poison; many of the owners and a large percentage of their claimed “faculty” hold homegrown “degrees.”

    Gus Sainz
    http://collegedegrees.tripod.com
     

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