I was going to post this on the U. of Phoenix thread, but it really doesn't have anything to do with that subject. So I'll post it here: I have always thought that graduates of non-accredited schools, at least on the bachelors and masters level, should be required to take some recognized set of examinations. If they pass, they get a Dept. of Education recognized bachelors or masters, whether RA or whatever. Degrees by examination have been around for generations. The University of London and Heriot Watt offer them. TESC, COSC and WGU offer them. The examinations that I am suggesting could be offered by the current providers, or some organization like the New York State Regents could work up a set of exams and grant USNY degrees for successfully passing a prescribed group of them. The non-accredited schools would then be prohibited from offering their own degrees, but allowed to market themselves as tutors preparing students for the assessment examinations. The advantage of this model is that it would help eliminate non-accredited degrees and all the controversy surrounding them, it would allow at least the better non-accredited schools to remain in business, and it would leave open the possibility of innovative educational experimentation free from the strictures of RA requirements. The accreditors would be concerned primarily with the integrity of the final assessment. Consumer protection could include a rule requiring pass rates for all of these tutoring institutions to be compiled and made public regularly. That would be much easier and more cost-effective than having each state run its own BPPVE-like pseudo-accrediting-agency like they do now. A hard core no-nonsense state like Oregon could relax and let any school that wants to offer MBA programs in Oregon do so. Even Trinity College and University. But Oregon could require that all their graduates take a new set of WGU MBA assessments (Oregon is a WGU consortium member), and that all the degrees be granted by WGU. Think of the increased business for WGU, even if this just started out with MBAs.
It makes sense to me. A standardized core competency series of examinations would also make sense for those in the RA system, IMO. But that's another ball of wax, I realize. ------------------ Quinn
I think the idea has merit and would serve many sincere, unaccredited schools with vanilla degree programs. However, one of the most (if not the only) convincing argument anyone makes about unaccredited universities is that some of them offer degrees in unusual subject matter. These schools are the most "noble" but would be the most injured by the plan because WGU and the like would not be qualified to grant degrees in Cherokee folklore, for example, even by examination. Perhaps a solution would be to make your proposal voluntary. Anyone wanting a vanilla degree should infer a great deal by an unaccredited school that was not part of the assessment system that you described. Even the vanilla degrees would required a plethora of qualifying exams to account for the diversity of programs.
I'm all for it, but I have some questions. First, who develops the exams? Is this done in each state? Even the vaunted NY Board of Regents uses the evil ETS to develop and administer their exams (I think!). Most states don't have the means nor the expertise to develop sufficient exams in every academic discipline necessary. Exams are great for the bachelor's and master's degrees. But what about doctorates? The states can't snuff out these, or they already would have done so. Then there's the competition from public and private universities. Or, rather, their resentment about this foray into their field, creating competition. Wouldn't the result be tantamount to earning an unaccredited, state-approved degree? Or would all these degrees be awarded by WGU? Then there's restraint-of-trade and post-facto law issues. (I have to defer to others with more legal knowledge than I to assess these possibilities.) Who pays? States tend to subsidize the education they provide. Perhaps this kind of venture would be self-sustaining. Love the idea. Wonder if it would work? Rich Douglas
I, as much as everyone here, enjoy talking about the issues surrounding distance learning. Education is the tranfer of information. Sometimes the transfer is successful, sometimes it isn't. Fault can be blamed on the school or the student. There are varying degrees of quality in every product. I thought that accreditation seeks to maintain a minimum standard. We all have a choice of programs that most meets our needs. I was going to school 3 nights a week (one of them was Friday) for a year and a half. I still had two years to go, until I looked into the University of Phoenix. They accepted more military credits than the school I was going to. This school was supposed to be a Service Members Opportunity College, but they only accepted 4 credits for Boot Camp; even though I spent 8 hours/day for a year in the electronics program. UoP met my needs, and led to my being accepted into a residence MBA program. This program was not AACSB, but the college is well respected. I remember talking to an intern at my job who was an MBA Student at Washington University in St. Louis, which a top business school. I brought up the subject of elasticities of demand, and he had no clue what I was talking about. That doesn't mean my program is better, but for some reason I gained information that he didn't, which is one of the reasons I decided to go to school. Incidently, He is paying $3,000 more per year that I spent on my entire degree. He is also still in school 1.5 years later. I do realize, however, that he will come out and like make more money that I do. Afterall, he did pay the price to. ------------------ Darren Cross BSB-Management, UoP MBA-Fontbonne College
I forgot to state my position. I don't think a test and federally supported degree should be the way. I don't want the government in control of much else in my life. We should just educate ourselves about products, and take resonsibility for our choices. That is the American way. ------------------ Darren Cross BSB-Management, UoP MBA-Fontbonne College
Though I don't oppose alternative routes to establishing the legitimacy of non-RA degrees, I guess I would move the discussion to an earlier point before agreeing with Bill's competency exam proposal. I think we first must ask *why* certain legitimate, non-RA schools that would obviously have a great interest in separating themselves from the less-than-wonderful non-RA schools cannot get regional accreditation. Is it because in some cases the academic standards are indeed lower, but not to the point of being a mill? Is it because the accreditors still impose restrictions that in many cases may not necessarily have a lot to do with academic merit? Is it because, in the case of DL programs, there remains a bias against primarily DL institutions? Or maybe we have to revisit the debate over whether it is appropriate to grant life experience credit (and if so, how much) for graduate programs? If we can get to the heart of those questions, then we can begin to consider what alternatives might be appropriate.
My best guesses (and that's all they are!) would be ... (For the legitimate but still non-RA schools) - More ties & restrictions on the programs and courses that they offer. - Costs associated with becoming RA that allows them to keep their costs very low. (For example: Compare the cost of a CCU doctorate with one from Nova Southeastern). (This obviously does not apply to Bachelor degrees.) - Residency requirements on doctoral programs. For the most part, becoming RA requires you to have a residency program of SOME sort. Non-RA schools do not have to have that requirement. (For the "less than wonderful" schools - Failure to pursue RA allows them to pretend they are more than they are.
Good point. Actually, I'm actually kind of dissappointed by how "vanilla" the non-accredited schools are. They have the opportunity to explore new and controversial subjects that conventional academia isn't ready to offer, but most of them chase the same students as everyone else. MBAs and the like are the staple in both the non-accredited and the accredited worlds. So yeah, my idea would work for the "usual suspect" subjects a lot better than for the rare and unusual ones. I have no problem with making it voluntary. I just suggested requiring it because it would be a way of dealing with the degree mill problem, it would provide comparative statistics that would help identify schools with substandard teaching, and it is certainly less draconian than what Oregon is doing now. If you treat it as voluntary, you could start it tomorrow. The assessment programs already exist in the form of TESC and the rest. So some of the non-accredited schools could conceivably team up with one or more of those programs and teach to their exams, help students prepare portfolios and so on. They could do all of that without having to worry about the accreditors at all. Nevertheless, their successful students would earn accredited degrees.
Very good points. The residency issue is key, I think. (I actually think that residency periods are very useful, but some may differ.) Also, on costs, the experience of unaccredited law schools moving toward ABA accreditation is instructive: Tuition often soars as the school beefs up its library, full-time faculty, and support services to meet ABA standards.
