Apostille, LaSalle University, and the Louisiana Secretary of State's office

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Chip, Jun 29, 2009.

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  1. Chip

    Chip Administrator

    I had a delightful phone conversation today with Steve Windham at the Louisiana Secretary of State's office, and wanted to offer a clarification on a couple of threads that have appeared here at DegreeInfo on the subject of authenticating degrees from unwonderful schools such as LaSalle University.

    It seems that someone has unearthed a 6 year old letter from the now-defunct LaSalle implying that if one gets an Apostille, it will somehow confer validation on the otherwise worthless LaSalle degree.

    Nothing could be further from the truth.

    As a result of this posting, his office has been deluged with requests to provide Apostilles for unwonderful schools, including LaSalle.

    While they are quite willing to provide them, the Apostille has no value in authenticating or accrediting the degree granted. It is simply an affirmation by the state that a state-certified notary witnessed signatures on a document. Nothing more or less.

    So, for example, I could start a fake school, sign the diplomas of said fake school in the presence of a notary, then send the notarized documents to the state to receive an Apostille. I would then have a document saying that I signed another document. Nowhere is anyone looking at, or remotely concerned about, the contents of the document I signed, or the truth (or lack thereof) of any claims I might have made by signing it.

    I suspect the original reason for the letter being sent was so LaSalle could squeeze a few extra dollars out of the students who enrolled in their fraudulent school. (LaSalle was charging $90 to facilitate issuance of an Apostille.) It is unfortunate that the letter has resurfaced, and even more unfortunate that people are getting their hopes up about being able to legitimize a degree from a school that is one of the few where the proprietor actually went to jail for running it.

    Keep in mind that many other fraudulent schools, both in the US and elsewhere, use the "Apostille" claim to confuse people into thinking their degrees are legitimate. If you ever run across this in a school's "accreditation" section, it is an almost sure sign that the school is fake.

    I hope this clears up any misconception, and saves some people some money and heartache.
     
  2. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member


    The problem is that some people are simply so desperate and they want to believe this silliness so much that they don't believe it when told that an apostille does nothing proving validity of a diploma mill degree or any kind of document. I just hope that they don't get themselves into legal trouble by using the bogus degree in a jurisdiction where it is illegal! I mean I can imagine a hiring manager interviewing someone and being impressed by an apostille and then later finding out it is worthless and calling the authorities!
     
  3. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    Here's an excerpt from an article I've just finished for a book, to be published in England in 2010, on higher education. If you would like to send it to the people in Louisiana, that is OK. Please note that it is copyright 2009 by John Bear.
    -------------------
    The Apostille is used to fool people in one country into thinking a fake diploma issued in another country is legitimate. The implications are significant for higher education, immigration systems (visas), and commerce (jobs, promotions, pay raises).

    The Apostille is, simply, an international notarisation, or documentation. Authorities in one location certify that a the signature and seal on a public document from another location is an authentic copy. The Apostille Convention makes clear that, ‘…the effect of an Apostille does not extend to the content of the public document to which it relates.’ [Footnote 13: ‘The Application of The Apostille Convention to Diplomas Including Those Issued by Diploma Mills.’ Hague Conference on Private International Law, Special Commission of February 2009 on the practical operation of the Hague Apostille Service, Preliminary Document No. 5. The Hague, The Netherlands. 2008.]

    One can take any document to a local notary service, almost anywhere. The notary compares the signature on the document with the signature on a passport or driver’s licence, and if they are the same, will stamp and seal the document. The notary does not read the document; it is irrelevant. A person can type out a document stating that he has won the Nobel Prize for Chemistry; is owed £1,000,000 by a major corporation, or has been elected Pope of the Roman Catholic Church.

    The notarized document is then submitted to a national agency [Footnote 13: Sometimes there is an interim step, as in the US, where there is a state notarization process called authentication, before the federal process.] which confirms that the original notarized document has a proper seal and signature, then issues the Apostille. At no point does anyone read the document. Apostilles are issued by various agencies: the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in the UK, the Department of State in the US, the Ministry of External Affairs in India, etc., and sometimes by embassies and consulates.

    Scores of degree mills have used the Apostille process to fool students. They type out a statement that says they are licensed, accredited, approved, and internationally accepted. That statement is locally notarized, then they get the Apostille and say, for instance, ‘We are fully accredited and recognized by the government of the United States, as attested in a document signed by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.’

    Is there any prospect for change?

    Possibly. In 2009, the Permanent Bureau of The Hague Conference on Private International Law, acknowledging that ‘degree mills are a problem that goes well beyond the scope of the Apostille Convention itself,’ recommended ‘the issuance of Apostille only for legitimate diplomas issued by public or similarly approved, regulated, or controlled institutions….’ It will not easy to implement this rule, but at least there is hope. Meanwhile, it is essential to look carefully at any Apostille used to validate a diploma or other academic document.
     
  4. Chip

    Chip Administrator

    Steve actually told me during our phone conversation today of a conversation he had with a woman who was in tears after finding out the Apostille procedure was bogus. She had a LaSalle degree and she desperately needed a legitimate degree in order to keep her job. She had been led to believe the Apostille would legitimize her degree, and Steve had to explain that it would not.

    It really sucks how these schools deceive and misrepresent things like this.
     
  5. Bassuny

    Bassuny New Member

    Who authenticated the degree (2 stamp on back of the degree) couldn't read !
     
  6. Steve Levicoff

    Steve Levicoff Well-Known Member

    Irving Kaputnick.
     
  7. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Elusive fella, Irving. Didn't know he dabbled in apostilles. Found him, here: https://plus.google.com/104005273261479807654

    Is he related to the late Dave Berg's alter ego, Roger Kaputnik? (Mad Magazine) I'm told Berg spoofed others in his family in his strip, "The Lighter Side of..."

    Somebody, somewhere in cyberspace, said they thought Irving Kaputnik was a name assumed by Tony Curtis' character in "Some Like it Hot." I don't think so. In that movie, Mr. Curtis portrayed Joe, also known as Josephine and "Shell Oil Junior."

    Irving sounds like an interesting guy. If he shows up, let me know. Love to meet him. :smile:

    J.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2017
  8. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    At the top of the pile: an old, dusty bumped thread originally started by Chip?!?!

    The Dodgers make it to the World Series more often than Chip posts on this forum these days.

    I guess tonight we're gonna party like it's 2009. :banana:
     
  9. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    At first sight I thought it might be yet another Kaepernick post. Oh good. It wasn't. His 15 minutes are up...

    J.
     

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