Addressing Individuals

In another thread there was discussion about whether a person with a state approved doctorate should/could be addressed as "Dr".

This reminded me of an incident that took place a few years ago when I attended a job interview at a university. The employer refused to address a man as "Dr", arguing that his Italian doctorate was only the equivalent of a MBA/MSc in the UK. The employer acknowledged that the degree was perfectly legitimate/legal but claimed it was almost worthless in comparison with UK qualifications. Obviously, the candidate was very unhappy and withdrew from the selection process.

Turning to the US education system, I'd like to ask whether a person with a state approved/licensed doctorate is entitled to be addressed as "Dr" (i.e. legally entitled). In other words, are they a "genuine" PhD and entitled to be addressed as such?

Whatever your view, I'd also be interested to hear the reasoning behind it.

Regards,

Paul

 

I would guess that as long as he is within the state that certifies his doctorate, then he can be called a doctor.

But what if he leaves the state and enters a state that does not recognize his doctorate because it isn’t regionally accredited? In that case, he’s not a doctor in that state.

 

I can't speak to the legal or popular side of this, but I generally use "Dr." for anybody who wants to be called "Dr." (just like I use "Rev." for anyone who wants to be called "Rev."), largely because titles mean so very little to me.


Cheers,

------------------
Tom Head
www.tomhead.net

co-author, Bears' Guide to the Best Education Degrees by Distance Learning (Ten Speed Press)
co-author, Get Your IT Degree and Get Ahead (Osborne/McGraw-Hill)

 

This is a curious question because there are people have PhD-s from schools that are not regionally accredited, but granted through state approved non-profits. Never thought of this question but it is a good one.

 

As far as "legally entitled" the answer is no. In fact NO ONE is legally entitled to call him/herself "Doctor". Even if the degree is legitimate, people are addressed as doctor to show respect not because any law says that they have to.

About the only real legal restrictions that exist is that one cannot call himself "doctor" for the purpose of deceiving someone into thinking that they have a legitimate Medical License.

As to your actual question, of whether a state approved degree should allow one to be called doctor: people can pretty much demand to be called whatever they want (Baron, Duke ...), and you can go ahead and address them as whatever you want (Col. Sanders, Dr. Ruth... ). But in the United States it means nothing more than Mr. or Mrs. in a legal sense.

Jeff

 

I'm not sure I agree with the original contention, although the conclusion is correct.

If you buy a doctorate for $10 through the mail, you can legally call yourself "Doctor" as long as it is not to perpetrate fraud. The title does, indeed, call into the same catagory as "Rev."

However, no one is legally required to call someone else "Doctor," regardless of the source of the degree.

On the other hand, when I served as an expert witness in one case, opposing counsel started referring to me as "Mr. Levicoff" (to which I did not object - you can call me anything but late for dinner), and the judge demanded that the lawyer address me by the doctoral title.

As for me, I never refer to myself by the title, and I am on a first-name basis with all of my physicians. When lecturing, I do refer to others by their doctoral title for the sense of decorum, but I do not use the title for persons who graduated from non-RA U.S. programs that I consider degree mills. Pure and simple, they don't deserve it.

(So put that in your pipe and smoke it, you Cal Coast types.)

 

I think that this hits it exactly right. The restriction seems to be more a social one than a legal one. And, in the case of social restrictions (what society perceives as "correct"), it's entirely up to the individual whether they use the honorific.


Tom Nixon

 

Mmmmmm, I sort of like the title of "Sire." Mmmmmmm.....

 

I would have thought the "But Officer I wasn't ....!" was pretty close.




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M. C. (Mike) Albrecht, PE

 

I think that some of us are as hung up on this "Dr." thing as some of the people who pursue non RA PhDs. My feeling is this: If I have met and gained respect for someone, (s)he has a doctoral degree and wishes to be called "Dr.", I do. I don't feel it is my place to judge the legitimacy of their credentials. If I am choosing someone whose services I am going to use, then I would judge their academic qualification.
If, however they are being arrogant, I will be quick to asses the legitimacy of their degree, and tell them about themselves. To me, if someone jumped through the hoops(no matter how easy), SCREW IT, I will call them Dr. if they so choose.

I will never for get this story. The doctor's name is changed to protect my brain (I can't remember).

I was a telephone technician, hooking up service at a house. The owner, a physician, needed to know some things about his service, but the only contact number I had was in Michigan (I was in southern Illinois). I called the number and asked to speak to Mr. Smith. The lady said, "I am his mother, he has moved to Illinois." After I explained that I was the phoneman and needed to talk to him, she gave me his cell number and said, "By the way, his name is Dr. Smith, not Mr. Smith." I was stunned, but I got over it as I called Dave to tell him about his service.

Who cares about all this crap?

 

LOL

My perception of the term ”officer” has changed drastically in the last 15 years. To some outsiders, we are knights in shining armor. To others, we are crooks with badges. And yet to others, we are just ordinary, hard working Joes who are trying to make an honest living.

To me, law enforcement is a dirty job. While the construction worker can wash off his dirt at the end of the day, the officer cannot wash off the insults that were hurled at him by some of the most vile criminals you can imagine.

My job is the only job I’ve ever had where some idiots try their damdest to insult me. Imagine that? 99% of the arrestees will sit quietly in the back of the car. But there is that 1% who try so hard to get under my skin and, when they do, I hide it from them. But it does take a toll on me. Their main mission in life is to ”get under the skin of the officer.”

In 1987, if you addressed me as ”officer,” I’d have stuck out my chest in pride. Today, it might make me feel a little dirty because it would remind me of being in the trenches with vile people who I would have never met if I had not gone into law enforcement.

Oops, I find myself going off on a diatribe.

Yeaa, I like the title ”Sire.”

 

Is "Gettouttacarplezir" an official title?

Seriously, though, about the only thing that ever makes me cringe is when I'm addressed by my first name by a total stranger who just happens to be processing a bank deposit, or just happens to have my credit card after/before a transaction.



------------------
Quinn

 

Oh, I forgot to sign off


Bachelor Scientist and Master Business Administrator Cross

 

Obviously, many seem to, Master Cross. ;-)



------------------
Quinn

 

I have earned the Doctorate degree and have been ordained with the title Reverend, but in concert with Tom Head, who cares. I would much prefer to be called "Howard." My parents gave this name to me, it is mine, and I had to do absolutely nothing for it.
Doctorate to fulfill monetary obligations - I can charge twice as much doing a seminar - and get more physician referrals. The Rev. -don't know how that got started, don't care. If you want to address me, call me Howard. Kids at church do, bank clerks do, patients do, and most of the time my wife does. The Reverend Doctor Father (I have five children)Howard.

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Howard Rodgers

 

Just to add my 2 cents:

Titles do have meaning when used appropriately. In the miltary we certainly would not address an officer as a private. Martial artists refer to their dojo master as sensei. In K-12 grades we address our teachers by Mr., Mrs., Ms. or Dr. In higher ed we may use the same or else use Professor. There are certainly protocols to be followed.

In a profesional setting it is very appropriate to address someone as Dr. So & So and it is a sign of respect. In a social setting we must let the norms of the community take hold.

John

 

NYS Education Law Section 224

4. No diploma or degree shall be conferred in this state except by a
regularly organized institution of learning meeting all requirements of
law and of the university, nor shall any person, with intent to deceive,
falsely represent himself to have received any such degree or
credential, nor shall any person append to his name any letters in the
same form registered by the regents as entitled to the protection
accorded to university degrees, unless he shall have received from a
duly authorized institution the degree or certificate for which the
letters are registered. Counterfeiting or falsely or without authority
making or altering in a material respect any such credential issued
under seal shall be a felony; any other violation of this section shall
be a misdemeanor; and any person who aids or abets another, or
advertises or offers himself to violate the provisions of this section,
shall be liable to the same penalties.

 

It's illegal in Florida to claim to have a degree that you don't have. It's also illegal to use the term "doctor" unless you have an accredited degree.

The following are paraphrases of the Florida state statutes:

 

The links didn't go through. I'll try it again here:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0817/SEC567.HTM&Title=->2001->Ch0817->Section%20567

and:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0817/SEC566.HTM&Title=->2001->Ch0817->Section%20566

Once we have the ability to edit, I won't leave these messy postings behind!

 

<b>It's illegal in Florida to claim to have a degree that you don't have. It's also illegal to use the term "doctor" unless you have an accredited degree.</b>

Now this gets *really* confusing!

If I understand things correctly, if your degree is state approved, you can claim to hold a legitimate degree in some states (like California) but not in others (like Florida). In California, you are are entitled to represent yourself as a PhD or whatever and can sign your name as "Dr" or John Doe, PhD. If you do this in Florida, you are committing a crime.

Is my understanding correct? If so, this seems to suggest that one state can effectively ignore the approval/recognition granted to a university by another state.

What puzzles me is how this works out in reality. For example, I note that Kennedy Western has approval in Wyoming but that their degrees are illegal in Oregon (I think I've got the states right). How does this kind of situation come about and why does it seem that only a relatively small number of insitutions are affected? Taking the Oregon example again (and from my own limited knowledge) I would say that KW and Century are fairly similar. However, Century is not listed on Oregon's list of "illegal" insititutions but KW is.

The whole situation raises some interesting questions/issues to consider. As an example, a person with an approved (but unaccredited) degree issued in California who works as, say, a psychiatrist could be arrested if he/she hands out a business card in Florida!


Paul