Jim Lane - Where are you?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Andy Borchers, Jan 5, 2002.

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  1. Andy Borchers

    Andy Borchers New Member

    Jim Lane - Couldn't help but notice the following post from a graduate of UoP. In the past you and I've had some good discussions about the school. Do you have any response on the statements this graduate makes? It certainly seems to validate a number of the points I made with you a while back.

    Regards - Andy

    ------------------------

    Originally posted by Richards:
    I got my MBA through UOP recently, so maybe I can offer up some reasons why people say that it sucks. Here are some pros and cons of the school and program that I wrote as part of an essay immediately after finishing my degree (note -- I'm gonna try some HTML here, so don't kill me if it doesn't work...):
    Pros
    <ol>
    <li>Convenient locations
    <li>Minimum time commitment. Classes meet once a week (nominally 4 hours, but usually less), group activities also once a week (again, nominally 4 hours, but never, ever, that long in reality)
    <li>No tests to study for
    <li>Pretty light workload, especially considering it's a grad program
    <li>Year round program, so it gets done pretty quick
    You can start whenever -- programs start year-round
    <li>Easy admissions. No GMAT, no applications, no letters of reference -- just a 2.5 Undergrad GPA (or keep your GPA above 3.0 for your first three classes with a less than 2.5 UGPA)
    </ol>
    Cons
    <ol>
    <li>Minimum time commitment. I'm sorry, but once you realize that the group meetings are a complete sham, you are left with about half of the hours per class than you would get at a traditional university -- and I don't think you can get anywhere near the depth or breadth of knowledge in that limited timecompared to what you would get in a traditional semester-length course.
    No tests. Well, how are you going to know if you've learned anything? I guess if they actually gave tests some people would flunk out, which would hurt their bottom line -- can't have that.
    <li>Light workload. Again, there just isn't enough time and work to actually learn a lot. The written assignments were usually pathetically easy -- oh, there were a few that actually took a little time, but, if you skipped the reading (and there really isn't any motivation to really keep up with the reading unless you are interested, because there are no tests) you could probably get by with an hour or less a week of homework. Not enough to learn anything.
    <li>Easy admissions. This is one of my biggest problems with UOP. Since virtually anyone can get it, and nobody ever flunks out, you end up with students ranging from very well qualified (basically, people who could have gone to a really good MBA program, but for whatever reason chose UOP) down to people who would never get into a traditional school. The disparity is very apparent -- I am not ashamed to admit that I will be embarrassed to admit that I have the same degree as some of the other people in the program. Yes, it is that bad. I hate to say it, but UOP is only a small step up from a degree mill -- at least as long as they retain their accreditation, they are still that one step up...
    <li>Group Assignments. What a complete waste of time. In order to maintain accreditation, classes need to meet around 45+ hours per class (In a regular school, you might go 3 days x 1 hour x 16 weeks = 48 hours) for a 3 unit class -- you are only in class 4 hours a week for 6 weeks = 24 hours (and very few teachers keep you anywhere close to that), so they make up the rest with "group meetings" and a "group assignment" -- usually a comprehensive paper covering the class topics. Of course, the group meetings are a complete joke -- even when we did meet (and we rarely did), we only met for an hour or less. The group projects sucked for 2 reasons. First, there was always at least 1 person in any given group who was either lazy, uncaring, or stupid (or had some other chronic health/family/other problem that kept them from contributing), and the rest of the group had to cover for them. Second, 30% of your grade is based on the group project, so if you have slackers, you either have to work extra hard or pay a penalty in grading. Of course, since there isn't a lot of work involved anyway extra work isn't a big deal, but its the principle of letting other people's grades get improvement from your work that bothers me.
    <li>Part-time Faculty. UOP hires "working professionals" with "real-world experience" to teach their classes. Some were very good, people who actually had a lot of knowledge and experience and were eager to teach. Most, however, were either experienced UOP teachers (that is, burned out), and some were just worthless. We had this one guy who must have been a professional storyteller, 'cause he kept making stuff up on the fly. And he was really rude and condescening as well. I've had some lousy teachers at other schools as well, but at least they new their material -- they just couldn't teach. UOP sometimes gets people who both know nothing and can't teach. I think a big part of the problem is that UOP hires its own graduates...
    <li>Course Modules. Every course is taught to a standard "course module" -- basically, all of the reading and assignments for each class are exactly the same for each identical class. From the outside, this doesn't seem too bad -- everyone gets taught the same stuff, and since you know what all of your readings and assingments are going to be for the entire course, you can plan your life accordingly. But in reality, the modules suck. First of all, they are rarely up-to-date, and they are not updated when new versions of texts come out. Second, a lot of teachers just go off on their own anyway -- these two things often caused great confusion amongst the students. Modules make it easy for the part-time professors (since they don't have to come up with lesson plans), but they do not provide an optimal learning experience, in my opinion.
    <li>$$$ -- UOP is currently around $1200 for a 3-unit class, and they raise tuition twice a year, rain or shine. And they will hound you like disgruntled loan sharks if you are late in paying tuition. And they will f&*% up your records and come after you even if you do pay on time. Every school I've attended, every last one, has made a big deal about getting tuition and fees paid on time, but UOP is ruthless in this matter.
    </ol>

    Okay, so I was a little hot under the collar right after finishing my degree. Basically, a UOP degree is a legitimate degree, in that UOP is accredited -- I have a friend with a BBA from UOP who then went on to law school at an ABA-accredited school, and is now a lawyer, so you can do things with the degree. I know a lot of technical folks in the Silicon Valley with UOP MBA's who have moved into management (hey, I guess I am one of them). So, it is not a useless degree.

    That said, if there is a state college or other program you can go to, I would strongly recommend it -- it would be cheaper and a better experience. My BS and MS are both from state colleges, and I am going to law school at an ABA-school, so my UOP degree is my only exposure to for-profit education. If there is not another real choice (due to location, scheduling, whatever), then UOP will work -- it is certainly better than no degree at all, and it is an accredited institution -- but state college or (if you really want to spend a lot of money) a good private school will give you more bang for the buck.

    Let me know if anyone has any further questions I might answer.

    Richard



    ------------------
    Andy Borchers, DBA
    NSU (1996)
     
  2. Ike

    Ike New Member

    Andy,
    Do you really believe that the poster actully graduated from UofP?
     
  3. Andy Borchers

    Andy Borchers New Member

    Good question - I normally take people at their word, but perhaps I shouldn't be so trusting.

    Regards - Andy
     
  4. levicoff

    levicoff Guest

    Note for newbies . . . What is obviously being discussed in this thread is the University of Phoenix. I mention this since "U of P" is usually used to refer to the University of Pennsylvania (which, unlike the University of Phoenix, is legit).

    Yeah, alright, I'm being facitious. (So don't sue me, Phoenix, it's a freakin' joke.) But to refer to Phoenix as UoP is, to me, as deceptive as using TUI as Touro University International instead of The Union Institute (even though Union is the one with the tui.edu web site).
     
  5. DaveHayden

    DaveHayden New Member

    I guess that would be www.TUI&U.edu now Steve? Since The Union is vacating the name we may have a tug of war for the site address.

    ------------------
    Best Regards,
    Dave Hayden
     
  6. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    In Northern California, the initials 'UOP' have traditionally referred to the University of the Pacific.
     
  7. Ike

    Ike New Member

    And UOP refers to University of Portland in north of Northern Califiornia (Oregon)
     
  8. Bill Highsmith

    Bill Highsmith New Member

    Is there a university in Podunk?
     
  9. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    Steve Levicoff: "...to refer to Phoenix as UoP is, to me, as deceptive as..."

    Years ago, when U of Phoenix opened a program in Stockton, California, they ran big ads about earning your degree at "UOP." The school name was apparently not mentioned. When the Stockton-based University of the Pacific (known locally as UOP) started hearing from local people who applied and discovered that they had applied to the 'wrong' school, stern legal measures were mentioned, and the University of Phoenix modified its advertising.

    Incidentally, my accurate description of their problems after moving to Arizona resulted in a long and extremely nasty letter from their attorneys, demanding that all known copies of the book be found and destroyed immediately, and that the issues never be mentioned in print again. (Note: all I did was refer to articles in the Arizona Republic newspaper.)
     
  10. DCross

    DCross New Member

    Hello,

    I wanted to chime in on the academic quality of the University of Phoenix.

    I was attending McKendree College, which has a great reputation in my area. I would attend class, take tests, and realize that I rarely had a more than a working knowledge of the subject matter. Furhter, my writing, which I look back upon with disappointment, regularly was graded liberally. When I transferred to UOP, there was a different story. The C- I received in my first class indicated to me that my days of ease were long gone.
    The program I did was through the Center for Distance Education, which is a little different than the Online Campus, in that it was more an independent study.
    I thought the program helped me to gain a better knowledge of the theories of business. There was usally a paper due each week; two for CDE students. In order to present papers that are not total BS, I had to have read and understood the material.
    I will say, though, that the Stats classes were particularly challenging for me. That is a difficult thing to "pick up", and even more difficult to "learn" over the phone, or by Email. I wish I would have had those classes in residence.
    Overall, I am very pleased with my undergrad from UOP.
    As far as MBAs, it seems that there are many programs for working adults in most of the towns that I visit. I would coose one them over just about any DL program I've seen. It seems there is a bias against just about anything anyone could pursue. I would think about the learning experience, cost, and utility of the degree.
    I am reminded of the story of Willy Gary.
    He is one the richest lawyers in the U.S.
    the funny thing is.......he graduated from an obscure law school in North Carolina, one which has never registered on any "best List I have ever seen. Yet, he has parlayed his degree into a very good career. UoP has done the same for lots of others.

    ------------------
    Darren Cross
    BSB-Management, UoP
    MBA-Fontbonne College
     
  11. That was an interesting post from Mr. Lane.

    I have been teaching with the University of Phoenix Philadelphia Campus for over a year now, I am certified to facilitate 19 courses so I've had the opportunity to see all the stats classes on the undergraduate and graduate level as well as the Management and Operations Management sequences. I test the bejesus out of my students. My course load this past year was 30 Semester Hours.

    Next week I will be giving a stats class a final exam worth 30% of their grade. I take the study group assignments seriously and I do keep the students in the class.

    I suppose I must really be the rare exception Mr. Lane refers to!! If I am, I am at a entire campus of exceptions. I don't see any difference in my activities compared to the rest of the faculty. We have a faculty that serves students at three locations in the area. All the facilitators have to successfully complete a 5 week certification course. I have participated in faculty assessment and we have actually come up empty in reccommending candidates for certification course. The Philadelphia Campus takes the U of P hiring standards seriously. These are the reasons I ended up with a 30 semester hour teaching load... just no one applying since the pay is low and opportunities abound elsewhere.

    It just might be Mr. Lane is a sponsor of the University of Phoenix sucks website.

    Regards,

    Dick
     
  12. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    University of Phoenix Online Sham (and it’s RA too!!!)

    The analysis by Richards was ”on the money.” I took one class from UOP and I corroborate everything that Richards said. Once I figured out that the school was a sham, I was incredibly embarrassed to tell anyone that I was taking a UOP online course. I have not re-enrolled in the UOP program and have since enrolled in a state university masters program.

    I can’t verify that he graduated from UOP, but I can verify that everything he posted is true because I experienced the exact same things that he wrote about.

    Once the regional accreditors find out about the sham that is going on at the University of Phoenix, the school will either lose it’s accreditation or will drastically modify its programs. I did not want to get a degree from them because once the public finds out about the sham, the degree will be politically worthless.
     
  13. WalterRogers

    WalterRogers member

    Actually I believe what you are seeing is not a sham but the bottom end of Regional Accreditation.


     
  14. Andy Borchers

    Andy Borchers New Member

    Good point - Not every school will be equally effective in educating students. Harvard Medical school graduates top MDs. Less known state schools train MDs too. Both are allowed to practice medicine after passing state boards. Most folks would recognize graduates from both as "doctors" - but might prefer the Harvard guy as having stronger credentials.

    In the MBA world - Harvard, Stanford, University of Chicago, UCLA, Michigan, etc. are among the top programs in the US. These schools focus on full-time students who are extremely talented (and have top GMAT scores and GPAs). There are various part-time programs that we talk about here that also award the MBA degree. But don't be confused - an MBA from Harvard and an MBA from a small state (or private) school may have the same three letters - but there is a difference in quality. Employers may well give the MBA from a top school a job over folks from the lesser known programs.

    The question is how low can you go and still have a creditable "MBA"? I maintain that for profit operators like UoPhoenix (and some non-profits, too) go to the absolute minimum. If all you want is a credential and you don't care what you learn or how well it will be respected - then go ahead and enroll. If you do care about the reputation of your alma mater, then look for higher quality programs. One quality measure you might consider - is the school AACSB or ACBSP accredited?

    Thanks - Andy



    ------------------
    Andy Borchers, DBA
    NSU (1996)
     
  15. Bill Hurd

    Bill Hurd New Member

    Andy, shouldn't we include IACBE acreditation? Both Baker College (my MBA) and Nova (your DBA) are IACBE.

    Bill Hurd
     
  16. Andy Borchers

    Andy Borchers New Member

    IACBE is the newest of the three business school accreditors. It isn't listed by the feds (at CHEA?) along with AACSB or ACBSP - but they claim they are working on it.

    I think IACBE is worth something - but I have some concerns. Right now I'd rank it third behind AACSB (the gold standard) and ACBSP (the silver standard). In time, they may develop to be a peer with ACBSP.

    Recently, I sat through an IACBE accreditation visit. Frankly, I wasn't too impressed by the visitors or their expectations. Also, IACBE has given some schools a "bye" and accredited them without a visit - for example, ACBSP schools were given IACBE accreditation for the first five years (or so) with no visit.

    IACBE allows you to accredit yourself on one of two bases - you can use the "input" formula where they calculate the % of PhD's on your staff, etc. or you can go with an outcome assessment approach. In the later, if you can show results, they are more flexible about "input" measures.

    Time will tell how all of this works out.

    Regards - Andy




    ------------------
    Andy Borchers, DBA
    NSU (1996)
     
  17. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I believe that Jim Lane is a graduate of U. of Phoenix who has defended the school in the past. The anti-Phoenix remarks were by somebody called 'Richards'.
     
  18. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    In reference to the UoP:
    Yes indeed, it is the absolutely worst school I've ever been to.

    Like I said, once the regional accreditors find out what is going on at the UoP, I doubt that they will be able to maintain their RA status without a major overhaul of their academic requirements. And that will put a major crimper on their cashflow.

    Will the UoP be around in 30 years? I seriously doubt it.

    I was absolutely disgusted with what I experienced at the UoP.
     
  19. WalterRogers

    WalterRogers member

    I think that if you took a look what are generally considered to be the top half of schools in the nation (probably even more), you would find a high level of consistency with respect to curriculum, work required and academic rigor. There are generally accepted academic requirements for what constitutes a degree among the better schools in the country.

    Once you get to the lower RA schools curriculum deviates, work required is minimized and academic rigor is weakened.

    The fact is that the RA are not enforcing what are generally accepted standards among the top (most?) schools in the nation.

     
  20. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    I just assumed that if a school (like UoP) was regionally accredited, then the academic standards would be rigorous, challenging and rewarding. Must be naiveté on my part (but I’m learning).

    I just can’t believe that a regionally accredited school can be that sloppy and get away with it. It’s just unbelievable.

    Okay, I’m stepping off the soapbox. Sorry for ranting.
     

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