Distance Learning Law Degree

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Haloren, Jun 4, 2009.

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  1. Haloren

    Haloren New Member

    Hi,

    I'm new to the community. I live in California and have begun to investigate the options for a law degree via the distance learning method. I am wary of the low pass/fail ratio's of the Baby Bar exam from some of the schools. I would like to hear from others who have had both successful and unsuccessful experiences....Thank You.
     
  2. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator

  3. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    Oak Brook takes an evangelical Christian stance with regard to the law, and used to (haven't checked for a while) require students to subscribe to that view.

    From time to time, people post, here, the most recent results on both the "Baby Bar" and the final Bar exam, for each California distance law school. Perhaps it is time for that again.

    And recall that even the very worst schools -- ones widely called diploma mills for their other offerings (Bernadean, City University Los Angeles, Saratoga, and Southland) still had a small number of people who studied hard and passed both the Baby and the Full bar.
     
  4. Haloren

    Haloren New Member

    Thank you Mr. Bear. I picked up the 16th edition of your book from the library and that is how I found this website.

    I would be concerned about attending a school that preaches religion as part of their program. That is a personal view. I'm beginning to wonder about the old adage "you get what you pay for" when it comes to distance learning as it pertains to the California Bar Exam. Any thoughts anyone?
     
  5. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    Oak Brook, unlike other unaccredited CA law schools, is non-profit. Their mission is not about the money -- rather, it is to influence the US legal system by creating attorneys who share their particular religious worldview.

    So unlike most other unaccredited CA law schools, they actually screen their applicants carefully. They only want students who (1) share their religious convictions, and (2) have a good chance of actually getting through the bar exam process. If an applicant lacks one or both of these qualities, then he or she won't further Oak Brook's mission, and so Oak Brook won't accept them. If an applicant does possess both of these qualities, then Oak Brook works hard to help them succeed.

    That's why Oak Brook students do relatively well on the CA bar exams. But that's also why their enrollments are relatively small. They aren't for everyone, and they would be the first to admit it.
     
  6. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    Only a small fraction of those who enroll at unaccredited CA law schools actually end up as practicing attorneys. I've seen estimates around 10% overall, but some schools are undoubtedly higher and others even lower.

    There is certainly a huge amount of attrition: many students can't pass the Baby Bar, others can't pass the General Bar, and others just drop out because they find it too demanding. The attrition rate is far higher than it is at conventional ABA-accredited law schools. To put it simply, most students who enroll at ABA law schools will eventually become attorneys. Most students who enroll at unaccredited CA law schools will not.

    But it isn't just a matter of "you get what you pay for". Unaccredited schools clearly can provide a legal education sufficient to pass the Bar exam, because dozens of unaccredited law grads do it every year. The other difference is that most unaccredited schools are for-profit, and therefore have no incentive to set realistic standards for admissions. Why turn away a prospective paying customer?

    At most conventional ABA law schools, admissions are competitive, and they have no qualms whatsoever about rejecting an applicant who doesn't have a certain GPA or LSAT score. Most unaccredited law schools, on the other hand, are for-profit, and have an incentive to open their doors to anyone who is prepared to pay, regardless of their track record. There is no minimum LSAT score, for example, because most unaccredited schools don't even require the LSAT.

    So the ABA schools use a rigorous test (the LSAT) to weed out weak applicants before they even begin their legal training. But the unaccredited schools do not bother. It's widely believed that the unaccredited schools routinely admit students who are grossly unqualified for professional-level legal study, which is a very difficult undertaking. That's why the unaccredited schools lose so many of their students at the Baby Bar stage, when they finally do face a rigorous test.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 4, 2009
  7. Haloren

    Haloren New Member

    Cal Dog thank you for helping me understand quantity versus quality - non profit universities versus the for profit unaccredited schools....for me the distance learning option may be the most viable because of where I live (hundreds of miles from an accredited school) and my lifestyle...

    I don't think Oak Brook would work for me....

    I'm also wondering if a non accredited degree would help me land work in a smaller law firm or is there a built in bias against a distance learning program by the law establishment at large?
     
  8. Kelly Green

    Kelly Green New Member

    You might want to check out Taft Law School:

    http://www.taftu.edu/

    http://www.taftu.edu/TLS/index.htm

    The are *not* ABA approved, but they are DETC accredited!

    Tuition is MUCH lower than ABA approved schools.

    I am considering doing a JD through them, but in a few years from now.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 7, 2018
  9. sideman

    sideman Well Known Member

    I had to weigh in on this one. You may want to check out my alma mater Northwestern California University of Law. I had a good experience with them. Even though I did not pass the baby bar (one attempt only) I proved to myself that I could handle the rigors of law school and basically learn to think like a lawyer. If you pursue this don't assume it's going to be a shortcut because it isn't. But if you go into this eyes wide open you'll do alright.

    Sideman JD
     
  10. sentinel

    sentinel New Member

    You were able to complete the law degree despite failing the Baby Bar examination, is that right? I am making the assumption the JD after your name is in reference to the Juris Doctor degree.
     
  11. sideman

    sideman Well Known Member

    Yes, I finished with a juris doctorate from NWCU. I failed the baby bar at the end of my second year and at that time switched to a non-bar program as I didn't know when or if I'd try a retake. By completing three years of study I qualified for a jd degree along with a bachelor of science in law.

    Sideman JD
     
  12. japhy4529

    japhy4529 House Bassist

    Haloren,

    You might be intersted in Concord Law School. As a result of being recently purchased by Kaplan University, Concord is now Regionally Accredited. This is a non-ABA school, but I would imagine that the baby bar/general bar pass rates are pretty good with this school.

    Good luck!
     
  13. edowave

    edowave Active Member

    With tuition of about $3000 per year, Northwestern California is on my "cool things to do if I had the time" list.
     
  14. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator

    I don't really understand this one. If you failed the baby bar, does that mean you did not really handle the rigors fully? That is like a friend that got through PT school but could not pass the state exam for licensing or another person I worked with that finish RT school but failed the state exam 3 times and gave up. You may have won the battle but lost the war.
     
  15. sideman

    sideman Well Known Member

    Randell,

    Not everyone passes the baby bar nor do they consider it the ultimate goal. My mission was to see if I could "handle" law school and learn as much I could about the law. During my studies I realized I have an aptitude for the law but it is not my passion. If it were my passion I'd study for the baby bar again and pass it on my next attempt. That said, it was a worthwhile experience and what I've learned is useful in my business world. If that's losing the war to you well then ask all the people that majored in a particular subject that don't work in that line of work now. Life happens.

    Sideman JD
     
  16. sentinel

    sentinel New Member

    The study of law, like the study of philosophy, can improve the student's ability to formulate thoughtful reasoned arguments. Moreover, as you mention the study of law in and of itself has been beneficial in your business. As with all educational pursuits this is the true measure of its worth because with notable exceptions (engineering, law, medicine) few degrees prepare the student for the real world.
     
  17. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator

    I see - I guess it depends on the end result you wanted to produce.
     
  18. warguns

    warguns Member

    law study

    I agree with some others that the discrepancies in pass rates are probably more due to admissions standards than much else.

    The Baby Bar questions are actually very easy

    http://calbar.ca.gov/calbar/pdfs/admissions/FYX/F0706-Selected-Answers.pdf

    In 2009, correspondence students actually had a higher bar pass rate than students from Cal Bar (non ABA) residential schools.

    California ABA 61% 39%
    Out-of-State ABA 52% 34%
    CA (but not ABA) Accredited 31% 12%
    Correspondence 40% 13%
    Unaccredited 13% 8%
    All Others 54% 28%
    All Applicants 53% 30%

    The first figure is for first time takers; the second for repeat.

    Of course most students from Cal Bar accredited schools don't have to take the Baby Bar, so many potentially weak students weren't weeded out like they were at correspondence schools.

    I would add another important consideration: feedback and help in exam writing skills are critical to preparing for the Bar exam. A school, especially one that accepts weaker candidates, needs to have lots of this. If you can't effectively IRAC, you wouldn't pass the Bar.

    A useful article

    http://calbar.ca.gov/state/calbar/calbar_cbj.jsp?sCategoryPath=/Home/Attorney%20Resources/California%20Bar%20Journal/December2008&sCatHtmlPath=cbj/2008-12_TH_01_onlineschool.html&sCatHtmlTitle=Top%20Headlines
     
  19. cbkent

    cbkent Member

    Haloren--

    I'm a DL law grad who passed the CA Bar exam and was admitted to practice. The school which provided my training was British-American University (BAU), which is no longer in operation. In addition to the information in the previous posts, I would like to add my observations.

    1. The attrition rate, as noted by others, is very high. BAU offered a live review for the Baby Bar, which attracted 35 or 40 attendees. The BAU pass rate was about the same as the state average--less than 25%.

    2. I only know of a half dozen or so "virtual classmates" that ultimately qualified as attorneys. Those that I knew personally were all successful professionals before enrolling in BAU.

    3. Success or failure in DL law school appears to be more a function of the individual student than the school. As others have noted, with no LSAT requirement or selectivity beyond meeting minimum state requirements, many are admitted who are not ready for the rigors of law study.

    4. It was much more difficult and time intensive than I anticipated.

    On the plus side:

    1. Tuition is very low. For $8K in tuition ($2K per year), I obtained a bar-qualifying JD and became an attorney. Private ABA approved schools were charging around $24K/year. Of course, tuition is higher today, but still far less than tuition charged by an ABA approved school. Imagine the horror of graduating from law school with over $100K in student loans, failing the bar exam, and having no law-related job.

    2. The flexibility of setting your own study schedule is wonderful, IF you have the discipline to stick to it. One can fall behind very quickly. Most DL schools will not police your study habits.

    3. I took commercial review courses for both the Baby Bar and General Bar exams, in addition to those offered by BAU. Most students from ABA schools take Bar Bri, and many also take PMBR. These courses aren't cheap, but I think they are a must. You will be competing on the Bar Exam with students from Stanford, Harvard, etc. The exam is scaled. Don't skimp on bar preparation. Take the commercial courses, and hire a tutor who was a bar exam grader to critique your essays.

    4. If you already have a profession, that specialized knowledge can be a great advantage if you want to open a "niche" practice.

    My advice to anyone who wishes to become an attorney is to attend an ABA approved law school if at all possible. However, for a select few, DL law study may be your best option. In my case, I suffered a stroke several years before my law study, leaving me with some residual paralysis. That, in combination with my business responsibilities made attending a conventional residential school impossible. DL law study worked for me, but I represent a tiny minority of students who made it from enrollment in DL law school to qualification as an attorney.

    I do not know the marketplace utility of the "executive JD" degrees which are promoted to those who fail (or do not take) the Baby Bar. It is unclear to me how much value an unaccredited (at least by ABA), non bar qualifying degree would have. Since it sounds like your goal is to practice law, this discussion may be immaterial, particularly if you are among the minority who pass the Baby Bar. In my case, I knew that a non-ABA JD would have little if any value; a professional license, however, is a credential in it's own right, which has great value. Had I failed the Baby Bar, I would have quit.

    Do your "due dilligence" when investigating a school. Are they unaccredited, accredited by DETC, or regionally accredited? What are the pass rates on the Baby Bar and General Bar exams? You might try asking about the attrition rate, and what percentage of graduates eventually pass the bar exam and become attorneys.

    When I was "shopping" for a school ten years ago, I found that there was considerable variation from school to school in customer (student) service, such as turnaround time for exams, depth of critiques of essays, availability of faculty for questions, etc. A number of the people at the live Baby Bar review were unhappy students from other DL schools who transferred to BAU seeking more personal attention.

    DL law study is a tremendous committment. Weigh your options carefully before diving in.

    Christopher
     
  20. connfair

    connfair New Member

    Flemings' Baby Bar review, writing workshop

    Has anyone used the Fleming’s Fundamentals of Law (FFOL) Baby Bar Review Course and the Fleming’s Fundamentals of Law (FFOL) Legal Exam Writing Workshop? I have applied to NWCU and they recommend both these programs--does anyone think they are worth it, or can another system be recommended?

    Also, any NWCU grads who can tell me about their experience with the school???

    Thanks. Connfair
     

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