I'm thinking of a Ph.D in Business @ Northcentral or DBA @ Argosy - HELP ???

I'm wanting a doctorate degree, I'm considering two (2) schools, wanting some feedback, direction, and help....

I looking at these two:

NORTHCENTRAL UNIVERSITY Ph.D in Business
RA Pending

ARGOSY UNIV DBA in Management
Has RA but is it a OK school ????


Help,

Thanks

West

 

Two questions:

1) Will NCU achieve accreditation? See other postings on NCU.

2) What are your plans for a degree. DBA function well in some environments but not so well in areas where the PhD is the only doctorate that is considered.

It would be hard to offer advise without the answer to these two questions.

Arogsy is a reputable school, but if you want a PhD or DBA they certainly are not the only DL school that offers these degrees.

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Howard Rodgers

 

Hello, you should be cautious to distinguish between "RA Pending" and "Candidacy Status Acheived." Pending seems to carry the implication that regional accreditation is all but guaranteed. One valuable lesson I've learned from this newsgroup is that even though it is rare for a school to achieve candidacy and not be ultimately accredited, it can happen. Notice what the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools has to say on the subject:

Q. Does candidacy assure accreditation?
A. No. The Commission does not grant candidacy to an institution
unless it has strong evidence that the institution
can achieve accreditation within the candidacy
period. However, attainment of candidacy does not automatically
assure eventual accreditation. The maximum
length of candidacy is four years. http://www.ncacihe.org/overview/2001HLCOverview.pdf

Northcentral may be a fine school; at the same time it may be a couple years, if not more, before they MAY achieve full accreditation. No point in spending the money only to have the slightest prospect of your degree not being accepted. It was tempting for me; but until such time as they are accredited, I am constrained to look elsewhere.

As for Argosy, I don't know much about them. Perhaps others can tell you more.

Regards,

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David F

 

"Shopping around" for a Ph.D. in Business myself, I surveyed four universities offering DL instructions, including Argosy, NCU and Capella. I want to let you know that it is my understanding that more than half of the required courses taught at Argosy requiring "short residency", which is done by attending classes in person for two non-consecutive weekends for each non-DL course.

NCU is the least expensive one ($230 per hour), however, NCU is a "candidancy for accreditation", which is not fully accreditated now, therefore, you should be willing to take risks. Capella is most "learned-friendly" and doable in 2-3 years. Capella is operating in a quarter system, and I am required to take another 10 quarterly courses even after transferring 10 earned doctoral courses into the Ph.D. program. Good luck to you!

 

I hate to sound like a broken record - but have you looked at Nova Southeastern? With 17,000 students, NSU is by far larger than the schools you are looking at and has been around for longer. Further, they have a real campus and a signficant number of full-time business faculty. They require more residency (I did 70+ days in my DBA program), but so what? Residency has much to say for it. Face to face interaction with full-time faculty and peers is certainly a plus. Finally, NSU is non-profit - unlike Argosy and Capella.

20 years from now - what is the likelyhood that Argosy and Capella will be in "business"? What are the odds that NSU will be around? Think about it.

Thanks - Andy

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Andy Borchers, DBA
NSU (1996)

 

Andy,

I have not even considered NSU prior to your recommendation. I am looking for a doctoral program to commence some time during 2002. I have been concerned about Walden and Capella in terms of how they are viewed (no bricks and mortar).

At the same time, NSU's residency requirements would take me to Florida. Isn't that correct? I live in the Bay Area and it would not be feasible to travel every month to Florida to do residencies. I seem to have heard that the NSU model calls for monthly visits to the campus. Is that a misunderstanding on my part?

Anyway, I would appreciate the opportunity to ask you some more questions on your thoughts about the school.

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David F

 

Argosy has been "around" from more than 20 years. The University of Sarasota is/was one of the pioneers of distance learning graduate education. Capella is very well funded, and has proceeded with great success over the past 5 or so years. While Nova is certainly a solid choice, there is ample reason to believe that Sarasota and Capella will continue to thrive.

Again, there has been zero regionally accredited DL schools to lose their accreditation in the past two decades.

The difference between for-profit and not-for-profit businesses is largely one of accounting and tax statuses. Also, not-for-profit organizations can accept donations. But neither status ensures a higher level of altruism or dedication to education. Accredited not-for-profit schools go out of business all the time; their tax status doesn't automatically bring about institutional stability. In fact, the opposite could be argued. For-profit organizations have a commitment not only to their customers, but to their stockholders. They might be more inclined to run efficient organizations capable of raising and using capital.

The original question posed in this thread was NCU or Argosy. I would choose Argosy, even though I've indicated many times that DL schools almost always go from candidate status to accredited. All things being equal, however, I'd choose NSU over either one. But things aren't always equal, are they? NCU offers a lower tuition, along with the opportunity to take the degree totally non-residentially. This is not inconsequential.

Rich Douglas

 

Best bet is to go to www.sbe.nova.edu for details. But here are some quick answers.

There are different ways to complete residency requirements. The 8 core courses are offered at cluster sites (14 nation wide) including one in Gardenia, CA. These meet monthly for a full weekend (Saturday/Sunday). You can also attend classes in a week long seminar format in Fort Lauderdale in July or December.

There is a mandatory course that meets in Washington, DC and a final capstone that meets in Ft. Lauderdale. There are a couple of research methods courses that are offered on-line.

Best wishes as you pursue your study.

Regards - Andy

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Andy Borchers, DBA
NSU (1996)

 

Rich - I guess I'm just a little sensitive to the "for-profit" educational institutions and their motives. Yes, they serve "customers" and "stockholders", but what about the community as a whole? This is where "non-profits" shine - their stakeholders are a broader group than the for-profits. I really question the educational and community commitment of institutions that are out to make a buck.

How do for profits "satisfy their customer"? At least in part, by awarding degrees with minimal hassle. How do for profits "satisfy their shareholders?" By collecting the maximum tuition with the lowest cost. But what is the result for society?

Here is one (make that two!) questions about for-profits - what sort of full-time faculty do they maintain? I've been impressed by the "cheapness" of all of the for-profits I've been associated with on this front. They employ adjuncts to keep their costs low - but how do they maintain a rich academic environment for students? Also, what about academic freedom in the for-profits? I've seen this as a shortcoming in the for profits I've had association with.

As for the longevity of non-profits - those that have bricks, mortar and endowments (and no profit motives) have some assets that for-profit cyber outfits don't have. Will the owners of for-profits continue to operate them if all they can do is break even? Of course not! But non-profits have a different vision.

Finally, as for the 100% non-resident approach to doctoral education - how likely do you see NCA accepting this? It sounds like a real sticking point. In UoP's case, they ended up giving in and requiring them. Capella did the same.

Regards - Andy

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Andy Borchers, DBA
NSU (1996)

 

I was surprised as anyone when NCA extended candidacy status to NCU without requiring residency for the doctoral programs. But they did it pro-actively (seemingly satisfied with NCU's use of two-way video). I don't think they would have made NCU a candidate for accreditation with the idea that NCU would have to radically alter their academic programs. The alterations would have been required first so NCA could observe and evaluate NCU. No, I think NCA will accredited them (assuming everything else remains in order).

I don't remember seeing a Capella doctoral program without residency requirements, even in their pre-accredited days. (I reviewed their materials and engaged their representatives even before NCA granted candidate status to the then-TGSA.) And certainly there were residency requirements in place at the time candidacy was granted.

As for Phoenix, I don't recall their doctoral program being without residency requirements, either. Of course, UofP was fully accredited long before they introduced the doctorate. They operated for many years offering only bachelor's and master's degrees.

My bottom line: both for-profit and not-for-profit schools must operate profitably under the same conditions in the same market. They must operate, promote, staff, recruit, and deliver their products. They must be good corporate and community citizens. Finally, they must earn more than it costs to operate, or they will eventually close.

Okay, my other bottom line: If not-for-profits are so altruistic, why do they charge so much for a degree program? Why is it that the costs of taking a degree from a for-profit school and one from a not-for-profit school are comparable? Because both price their product in the same manner. They charge what the market will bear. No difference.

Okay, one more: When a not-for-profit took its excess revenues and lowered its tuition, the shock would kill me. But it will never happen. If a not-for-profit and for-profit school charge the same and experience the same costs of operation, and the for-profit school makes money, doesn't the not-for-profit? And where does that money go?

Rich Douglas

 

There are more options to consider. I was bogged down by the choices, but recently made a decision. The last struggle I had was whether to choose Touro or Capella. Touro seems to solve all of my problems.

1. RA PhD in Business
2. Associated w/respectable brick and
mortar school.
3. Fully non-residential
4. Can be completed in 3 years

I will begin Touro's PhD in March, and by all indications, including those in some of the threads in this forum, I can expect a rich, rewarding educational experience. In any case, Touro should definitely be an option.

Darren Cross

B.S.B.-Management, U of Phoenix
M.B.A.-Fontbonne College

 

I should point out that Touro was briefly considered too, but there are a few questions that remain for me. First, I am unclear about Touro's decision to locate this new subsidiary in California since their regional accreditation is on the East Coast.

I know someone who worked for Touro College in New York. As for a stellar reputation, I may question that a bit. I'm not suggesting that it is not a good option. I'm only pointing out that I would want to know what led to the development of this California branch.

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David F

 

Here is something that I really don't care for: The quarter system. The number of courses one has to take to complete the program is really ridiculous. I have a feeling that this allows the university to earn more $$$ in the long run.

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David F

 

I didn't mean imply that Touro College has a "stellar reputation". I think it goes without saying, however, that the college is exactly what I said, "...a respectable brick and Mortar" school. There are many colleges where I live, and the people who work at them always make comments about how others may be better. There is always a cynical view of our own places of employment. One thing is for sure; I would never consider a candidate for accreditation over an RA school. If you look at the many posts in this forum that pertain to Touro, I think you will find that the experience is regarded as excellent. The reward?.......An RA PhD.

 

These are excellent points that have crossed my mind too.

Artumus Gordy

 

Rich - Some comments in return. Thanks - Andy

This is no different for not-for-profit schools. They must "make a buck," too. The difference between the two is that the for-profits must distribute net profits (not held as retained earnings) to the owners. Not-for-profits must retain all net profits. Another difference is that not-for-profits may avail themselves of donations. Finally, not-for-profits do not pay taxes. But the operation, promotion, distribution of product, everything else, is the same.

** So non-profits have additional sources of revenue (namely donations) and lower expenses (no profits to split or taxes to pay). That would seem to point a financial advantage to the non-profits.

Not-for-profits face exactly the same pressures. They, too, have to satisfy their customers. There is no difference. If not-for-profits are so altruistic, why do the rises in educational costs outstrip inflation? Because they can.

** I must disagree here - there is a difference - exactly the points above. Yes, non-profits have to break even - but then don't have to make a profit for their owners or pay taxes. As a case in point - take a look at NSU's website. Consider all of the medical, educational (including k-12, autistic and others) and mental health programs that they run in the community. Then look at the for profits outfits like Argosy, Capella and UoP. There is no comparison - the for profits don't do any where near as much on the charity side. NSU has a donar base and delivers services to stakeholders in the community. They aren't constrained to "customers" and "stockholders" like the for profits are. They do alturistic things that the for profits wouldn't think of.

Again, these questions are hardly reserved for for-profit schools. One of my schools,

** can we focus on the for-profits in question? What are the number of full business faculty at Capella or NCU? What is the number of full-time business faculty at NSU?

National University, was criticized for years for having a too-small full-time faculty, despite the fact that full-time faculty can be counter-productive in business education--especially when you're

** I differ her - the best business educators I've worked with are both practitioners and educators.

educating working professionals who want "real world" experiences from their professors.

** As for academic freedom - it is a major point here. For profits don't practice it and non-profits tend to practice it.

I think a more apt comparison would be between schools set up to teach working adults and traditional universities designed to education kids right out of high school. The questions of academic freedom, faculty, and quality of experience are valid--and questionable at these schools--but they again have nothing to do with a school's tax

** but as a practical matter I can tell you that for profits that aren't based in the academic world don't practice academic freedom. I know that NCA has made this a point in some accreditation visits.


My bottom line: both for-profit and not-for-profit schools must operate profitably under the same conditions in the same market.

** no - we agreed that the conditions aren't the same. Yes, both have some of the same expenses. But non-profits don't pay tax, don't distribute profits and can accept donations.

They must operate, promote, staff, recruit, and deliver their products. They must be good corporate and community citizens.
Finally, they must earn more than it costs to operate, or they will eventually close.

Okay, my other bottom line: If not-for-profits are so altruistic, why do they charge so much for a degree program? Why is it that the costs of taking a degree from a for-profit school and one from a not-for-profit school are comparable? Because both price their product in the same manner.

** they do price to market. But realize that non-profits have to subsidize non-profitable operations with profitable ones.


They charge what the market will bear. No difference.

Okay, one more: When a not-for-profit took its excess revenues and lowered its tuition, the shock would kill me. But it

** me too

will never happen. If a not-for-profit and for-profit school charge the same and experience the same costs of operation, and the for-profit school makes money, doesn't the not-for-profit? And where does that money go?

** well we know in the for profit case - it goes to shareholders. In the non-profit world - look at the services the institution provides.

Rich Douglas[/B][/QUOTE]



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Andy Borchers, DBA
NSU (1996)

 

A couple of takes here Rich.

As for administrators looting the treasury - non-profits have special reporting requirements, namely the IRS form 990. They have to publicly report the salaries of top paid administrators and others - both those that are officers and those that aren't. This report reveals improper situations. Where I've taught before it was treated as a public document.

Who said that students get to give their consent as to where money goes? Boards of non-profits are accountable to a variety of stakeholders, not just students. Students, of course, have the ultimate vote - they can walk out the door if they don't like what they see. Besides, it is rare for non-profits to charge students the full cost of their education. Non-profits typically cover a significant percentage of the cost of education (at many schools from 15-50%) from non-tuition sources. The for profits charge the full cost of education (plus their profit) to students.

Regards - Andy

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Andy Borchers, DBA
NSU (1996)

 

Two better options:

University of Glasgow DBA... prestigious school only moderately expensive.

University of Southern Queensland DBA... respected school and inexpensive.

Currently, American alternatives cannot compete with these (IMO).

 

Also,

Let's not forget CSU-Charles Sturt Univ. DBA also. Very inexpensive and go so far!

Humbug101 aka Brad Heath