doctorate w/o masters

I'm asking for a co-worker..well, sorta. I'm following up on a comment I overheard, so forgive the vague nature of my question. Does anyone know of an online doctorate program that doesn't require a master's degree first? In the tiny bit of research I did, I found that the online schools/programs seemed to require a master's for admission- where the traditional B&M schools all didn't. Anyone know? I didn't think this was the case, but it appears as if it might be true.

 

Harrison Middleton awards a Master's in passing.

 

Most of the online schools allow for doctoral admissions with a bachelor's only; however, whether one chooses direct admission to the doctorate or whether one chooses to get the master's first and then apply for the doctorate, it isn't going to change the number of post-baccalaureate credits one will need to achieve the doctorate.

 

northcentral requires 81hours for those without a masters or 51hours for those that transfer 30hours from their masters degree.

 

University of Phoenix offers an online (w/ 2-1wk. residencies) Ph.D. in I/O Psychology. A bachelors (in any discipline) is required for admission. A M.S. in I/O Psych is awarded along the way.

From the U of P site:


Specific educational requirements for the Doctor of Philosophy in Industrial/Organizational degree program include:

A bachelor’s degree with a cumulative total of nine credit hours in any of the following disciplines: statistics, social science, and/or psychology. Credits must be from a regionally or approved nationally accredited, or candidate for accreditation, college or university.
A cumulative grade point average (GPA) or 3.0 posted on the bachelor’s degree, or one of the following:
A 3.5 GPA for the last two years of coursework posted on the official bachelor’s transcript
A combined minimum score eof 1100 for the verbal and quantitative sections and a 4.5 on the analytical section of the GRE is required for the Master of Science in Industrial/Organizational Psychology degree program.

 

so the short answer is - it depends?
I looked around more last night using the cheapest PhD/EdD thread and still found that most of the online programs wanted masters for admission. It's no big deal- just curious.
The comment I overheard was regarding a faculty member who has a masters and PhD, her PhD isn't in her field- it's educational something or other. This person commented that the faculty member probably earned her doctorate "online" since she had both and didn't get it in her field. While I know that is an ignorant assumption on the part of the speaker (par for the course with him), I was more interested in finding out if the "master into online doctorate" track was usual for online - where the "bachelors into face-to-face doctorate" was more usual for face-to-face.

 

IMHO, the short answer is: Unless a school has much lower standards for their doctorate than other schools (in which case you probably don't want to go there) then they may admit someone without a masters to their doctorate program, but the person lacking the masters will need to do more work to earn their doctorate to compensate for their lack of a masters degree.

 

Well, somebody had to say it at least: Why not going for a PhD in the UK? Most schools seem to be fine with BA and award something like a Master of Research on the road.

 

Can you further elaborate on this? Most traditional PhD programs offered in the B&M setting do not require a Masters for admission into their program. This includes the top ranked programs in any field. Why do you say that a school would have to "much lower standards" in order to accept a doctoral student without a masters degree?

 

Okay, this is obviously a confusing point for many or it would not show up again, and again , and again.....

Yes, many B&M schools let you go straight from a BS to a PhD program (many online do as well with the same rules). The reason is almost all of those programs include the inequivalent workload of a combined master's and doctoral program. Going from BS to PhD does not avoid the MS worth of credits, it only folds them into the doctorate. Many of the BS -> PhD programs award an MS if you only complete part of the doctoral program.

In other words, there are very few, if any, opportunities in the US system to skip the MS credits and jump straightaway from a BS to a PhD. Look more closely and you may see something like:

BS: 120 credits
MS: 48 credits
PhD: 72 Credits

or

BS: 120 credits
PhD: 120 credits

Pick your poison.

 

This isn't true in the world of full-time AACSB-accredited doctorates in business. I've been doing a search of programs and almost of them make the point that their credits are different than a Master's degree program and no significant shortening of the program will occur because a candidate has a Master's level degree in the field. In fact, many recommend that a dedicated candidate skip that step altogether,

 

I see what happened, I misread what emmzee said. My bad.

 

I'm familiar with a few, SIU is one of them. They indicate that students who have not completed a masters degree will be required to complete a number of masters level courses first prior to beginning formal doctoral level coursework. I'm certain there are differences. The original poster using the term "doesn't require a master's degree first" seem to imply reduced courses. I don't think that is the case in very many institutions. The "no shortening of the program" is the operative concept.

 

You might like to consider Australia too. It is possible, and now almost the usual pattern, to start a Ph.D with a bachelors degree with honours. In the case of a BA, honours is one extra year of study with several subjects and a 15-20,000 word thesis. You need at least upper second class honours to be admitted to a Ph.D.

If you have something similar this might be worth following up.

 

A Master in Passing does not really occur at HMU (Harrison Middleton) unless you already have a degree like a JD or MD.

I have nearly 60 w/o an MA and they said no.

 

When searching for a doctoral program, I made the same observation: online schools seem to require a master’s degree, traditional schools don’t. I have some ideas to explain this difference.

Online programs and traditional programs may be targeting a different market/population. Online programs frequently indicate that they were designed with the working professional in mind. This potentially implies some years of experience and a possible master’s degree in the same field or in a different field of the desired doctorate; therefore, a doctorate requiring less credits and possibly less time and less cost may be appealing to the online market. If you don’t have a master’s degree, they’re happy to offer you one, but in the end, you have to complete a certain amount of post-bachelor’s graduate credits in order to be conferred the doctorate. Online doctorates may also serve individuals changing careers, or wanting the degree for professional/consulting purposes or for academic work at online programs as well.

On the other hand, traditional programs seem geared for the student with a bachelor’s degree, few or non years of work experience, and with a strong commitment with an academic career doing research and teaching at a traditional university as well. For some of the more selective universities, having a master’s degree (or even a first doctorate) in a different field than the one of your desired doctorate with them, may be a drawback for getting admitted. They seem to be very zealous regarding having been the ones providing you all the graduate training necessary to help you succeed in an academic career; you and your career are their product and their reputation. For example, if you have a master’s degree in family therapy (a professional area) and want to apply to Stanford’s Ph.D. in Psychology (an academic/research oriented degree), you may be asked by the admissions committee why you pursued a professional master’s degree if your plan was to be a professor/researcher. Here, a master’s degree in passing is optional, but why would you want to be awarded a master’s degree in the same area of your Ph.D. if your goal is professorship/tenure and if you are graduating from a big-name university? The same with Stanford’s Ph.D. in Organizational Behavior; an MBA (professional degree) does not shorten your Ph.D. and even may signal your initial, latent or ultimate interest in consulting/management, not research or tenure.

 

Maybe there is still some confusion. As one example of an online doctoral program, Capella does NOT require a Masters degree to enter the doctoral program, just like some B&M schools. BUT, and it is a big but, going from a BS to the PhD program requires more credits to complete the PhD program than going from a MS to the PhD program. This, too, is similar to what I have seen at B&M institutions.

I am curious as to which B&M schools are being referenced with regards to the no MS requirement. It would be helpful to the discussion to identify them and provide the number of credits required in their doctoral program. Might make for an easier apples to apples comparison.

 

It'd be easier to list the exceptions.

Check out the PhD programs in business for:

University of Chicago
Cornell University
University of Texas - Austin
Stanford
University of Southern California
Penn State University
University of Pennsylvania

And the list goes on and on...

All of them state on their FAQ page that a Masters in Business will not cut down the hours required for a PhD because the coursework for a Masters and a Doctorate program have little to no overlap. The most I've seen is that Harvard makes you take 2-3 extra classes if you don't have an AACSB MBA but it's part of their schedule and you wouldn't cut your time significantly by not having to take these. You'd just lighten your schedule a bit.

Capella's requirements have no resemblance to the average B&M business school doctoral program. Neither do the requirements at NCU. They're different beasts entirely.

 

How did the topic get focused on AACSP business programs? I thought the original poster first referenced PhD/EdD?

I do know for a fact that University of Chicago will award the Masters if you do not complete the doctoral program. Many schools, such as Indiana University, do not require an MS in their EdD program, however the number of credits in the PhD program is the equivalent of a Capella MS and PhD combined. Again part of the wording in the original posts implied perhaps something less if you went straight to a PhD from a BS. The PhD in business at Indiana has a Phase I that can be satisfied with an MBA. There are many examples of B&M programs that fit a similar model to Capella.

 

That's because just about every topic on here eventually goes back to MBA or DBA business programs. I guess that's what the majority of people on this forum are interested in. I am not one of those people, but alas it is what it is.