Is this the future of online education?

**friendorfoe** · 03-27-2009 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by DBA_Curious

Ahhhh but that's the trick. There's a demand for the benefits of a graduate degree as they exist today. But if we keep lowering the standards of the product, we'll have to hope that we can fit our existing expectations in with the new realities.

In other words, we're lessening the product so that more people can enjoy the benefits of the product, which will lessen (and perhaps at a faster rate) right along with the product itself.

As I said earlier, it's a neat trick we're playing on ourselves ultimately. Let's keep demanding that degrees mean less while hoping we can enjoy the old status of these degrees. At some point, it'll work out that degrees mean a lot less.

And as you said, I'm a MBA so I do know this. Chalk it up under how higher supply creates lower demand.

You have a valid argument and history would be on your side in this debate as the MBA has seen something of a drop in prestige, but not unusually so when you compare it to other degrees. In the 1980's having an MBA was something very unique and prestigious, of course in the 1980's having a BS degree was more than enough to set you apart from the crowd and build a healthy career on. So given that, your argument could be applied across the entire spectrum of postsecondary education , the MBA losing prestige is simply a sign of the times and not necessarily unique unto the MBA itself but can be applicable to higher education as a whole.

Secondly I'm looking forward. The baby boomers are retiring out, though not as quickly after the recent economic disaster. Sooner rather than later the U.S. will see increasing employment and skills gaps. In fact some technology sectors will see this in less than 10 years, in some areas of technology we are already experiencing this. We're already beginning to see it increasingly in medicine and in engineering . As this trend grows there will be fewer and fewer professionals who have the requisite training and skills needed to keep things running, an economic pendulum effect will take place as the boomers will leave a void that the following generations simply cannot fill adequately as there are just not enough Gen Xers and Gen Y skilled labor.

Lastly I believe that demand even now is not as low for skilled labor as some would have us to believe. Indeed having an MBA may not be a guarantee for employment but it is still certainly enough to set you apart from a crowd, doubly so if you add additional credentials on top.

**Chip** · 03-27-2009 08:51 PM

I am remembering a number of conversations here on degreeinfo back in 2002 or 2003 where several professors (mostly adjuncts, I think) who were members here at the time were talking about academic integrity and quality issues at U of Phoenix; in a nutshell, there were repeated cases where admissions was letting in people who were grossly underqualified for college level work, and more than one case where the administration was overruling professors on grades, because the student couldn't get reimbursement for less than a "B", and there was the implication of a nodding understanding that the employer (one or more large tech companies) wanted grades of "B" or higher, or they'd send their students somewhere else.

I am very willing to believe that these may have been the early growing pains of a school probably run by people with no background in academia, and/or that these were isolated cases in which a single administrator or small group was promulgating a policy that wasn't the policy of the seniormost people at UoP . I'm also quite willing to believe, based on the newer reports of a number of degreeinfo posters, that this issue either no longer exists or is an anomaly if it does still happen.

However... it is exactly this sort of thing that one has to be careful of whenever there's any sort of partnership where profit can potentially conflict with integrity.

Now... I'm sure the same thing happens in various circumstances with nonprofit entities; how many academically awful students are admitted to very prestigious schools because their parents give money for a new building? But I think it takes it to a whole different level when you actually start farming out portions of the actual bread-and-butter delivery of academic services that is the core competency of the school.

Not to say it can never, ever work, but it just seems as though it's something to be enormously cautious about, particularly when EIGHTY PERCENT of the income from that student is being sent to the third party; if the school is really still supposed to be providing a substantial portion of the services (professor preparing and delivering lectures, spending time with students stimulating learning and thinking, etc, not to mention basic admistrative overhead costs) I can't see how they can possibly be even close to breaking even if they're giving away 80% of the tuition.

**friendorfoe** · 03-28-2009 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by Chip

I am remembering a number of conversations here on degreeinfo back in 2002 or 2003 where several professors (mostly adjuncts, I think) who were members here at the time were talking about academic integrity and quality issues at U of Phoenix; in a nutshell, there were repeated cases where admissions was letting in people who were grossly underqualified for college level work, and more than one case where the administration was overruling professors on grades, because the student couldn't get reimbursement for less than a "B", and there was the implication of a nodding understanding that the employer (one or more large tech companies) wanted grades of "B" or higher, or they'd send their students somewhere else.

I am very willing to believe that these may have been the early growing pains of a school probably run by people with no background in academia, and/or that these were isolated cases in which a single administrator or small group was promulgating a policy that wasn't the policy of the seniormost people at UoP . I'm also quite willing to believe, based on the newer reports of a number of degreeinfo posters, that this issue either no longer exists or is an anomaly if it does still happen.

However... it is exactly this sort of thing that one has to be careful of whenever there's any sort of partnership where profit can potentially conflict with integrity.

Now... I'm sure the same thing happens in various circumstances with nonprofit entities; how many academically awful students are admitted to very prestigious schools because their parents give money for a new building? But I think it takes it to a whole different level when you actually start farming out portions of the actual bread-and-butter delivery of academic services that is the core competency of the school.

Not to say it can never, ever work, but it just seems as though it's something to be enormously cautious about, particularly when EIGHTY PERCENT of the income from that student is being sent to the third party; if the school is really still supposed to be providing a substantial portion of the services (professor preparing and delivering lectures, spending time with students stimulating learning and thinking, etc, not to mention basic admistrative overhead costs) I can't see how they can possibly be even close to breaking even if they're giving away 80% of the tuition.

This can happen in the case of non-profit schools as well. I'm not trying to name names here, but the on company site classes that a major military contractor in North Texas has which are facilitated by a well known Texas B-school are circumspect according to a very, very close friend of mine who has attended one of their courses. The company pays for the course out of departmental budgets, everyone shows up after work once per week for 3 to 4 hours, (largely engineers ) so they can work towards their MS in Management or whatever it is, cohort style, with a wink, wink, nod, nod, we have to do this for promotions, etc. and they are of course graded as a group for whatever they do in these courses. Do this for about 18 months or so and WHAM!... you've go yourself a highly respectable masters degree offered by a ranked B-school that you didn't really earn, at least in a traditional, academically rigorous fashion. Sometimes the classes are even taught by an adjunct who works for the company either indirectly or directly. The school's investment? Almost nothing...

Again it's credentialism at its worst but what can we do right? In the case of the OP I'm not crying fire until I see smoke.

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**Abner** · 03-29-2009 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by friendorfoe

This can happen in the case of non-profit schools as well. I'm not trying to name names here, but the on company site classes that a major military contractor in North Texas has which are facilitated by a well known Texas B-school are circumspect according to a very, very close friend of mine who has attended one of their courses. The company pays for the course out of departmental budgets, everyone shows up after work once per week for 3 to 4 hours, (largely engineers ) so they can work towards their MS in Management or whatever it is, cohort style, with a wink, wink, nod, nod, we have to do this for promotions, etc. and they are of course graded as a group for whatever they do in these courses. Do this for about 18 months or so and WHAM!... you've go yourself a highly respectable masters degree offered by a ranked B-school that you didn't really earn, at least in a traditional, academically rigorous fashion. Sometimes the classes are even taught by an adjunct who works for the company either indirectly or directly. The school's investment? Almost nothing...

Again it's credentialism at its worst but what can we do right? In the case of the OP I'm not crying fire until I see smoke.

Excellent points broheim. I have a relative who is a teacher . She went for her masters at a non-profit. They worked in groups, and I honestly did not see her put that much effort into it. It sounds like a very similar structure to what you are describing.

If someone could take advantage of this low cost accredited degree for a credential, I so go for it!

Abner

**bazonkers** · 03-29-2009 11:28 AM

Maybe there needs to be an external independent organization that gives the comp exams for programs as opposed to the school itself. It would be similar to the subject GRE for undergraduates, but more complex and more in line with current comp exams. It wouldn't matter if you earned your MBA from Basketweaving State or Harvard as long as you passed your independent comp exams. This might solve the issue where grade inflation plays a role as well as the above example where the B-school in Texas gives out a degree for showing up essentially. If the graduates can't pass this exam, it would look horribly bad on the school that "taught" them. It might better police the schools and force them to stop offering sub-par programs. These independent comp exams could be instituted for any degree, not just business degrees.

Additionally, it might help level the playing field. Based on current rankings, I think most people would hire a graduate from Harvard rather than someone from Basketweaving State. What if the Harvard grad finished at the bottom of their class and the Basketweaver was a superstar? That might change some decisions but currently, there really isn't a way to figure that out.

**friendorfoe** · 03-30-2009 05:30 AM

Originally Posted by bazonkers

Maybe there needs to be an external independent organization that gives the comp exams for programs as opposed to the school itself. It would be similar to the subject GRE for undergraduates, but more complex and more in line with current comp exams. It wouldn't matter if you earned your MBA from Basketweaving State or Harvard as long as you passed your independent comp exams. This might solve the issue where grade inflation plays a role as well as the above example where the B-school in Texas gives out a degree for showing up essentially. If the graduates can't pass this exam, it would look horribly bad on the school that "taught" them. It might better police the schools and force them to stop offering sub-par programs. These independent comp exams could be instituted for any degree, not just business degrees.

Additionally, it might help level the playing field. Based on current rankings, I think most people would hire a graduate from Harvard rather than someone from Basketweaving State. What if the Harvard grad finished at the bottom of their class and the Basketweaver was a superstar? That might change some decisions but currently, there really isn't a way to figure that out.

I see the logic, but technically isn't the whole point of accreditation to ensure quality if nothing else?

Also I don't think we will ever see comp exams that would level the playing field among top ranked B-schools and Basketweaving State, there's just too much money and power in play.

**bazonkers** · 03-30-2009 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by friendorfoe

I see the logic, but technically isn't the whole point of accreditation to ensure quality if nothing else?

Also I don't think we will ever see comp exams that would level the playing field among top ranked B-schools and Basketweaving State, there's just too much money and power in play.

True, maybe it wouldn't totally level the playing field because there are many intangible benefits to attending the top programs. It would, however, assure employers that both students received a proper education in whatever course of study they completed.

As for accreditation, one would think that would be the case but it doesn't appear to be so. I haven't heard of one fairly well known school that has ever lost it's accreditation for grade inflation, etc. I think there definitely was (maybe is) a quality issue with the University of Phoenix for example, yet they continue to keep their accreditation. Maybe the accrediting agencies need to be tougher?

Certain graduate programs require undergraduates to take the subject GRE in Psych, Physics, etc. in order to better judge how qualified they are for graduate study. These undergrad students come from accredited schools, yet many graduate programs still require an independent exam to measure their knowledge.

**friendorfoe** · 03-30-2009 11:14 AM

The problem I see from an employer perspective in hiring graduates, certified or not, regardless of where they went to school, is that there are so many variables that come into play in the workplace that are impossible to detect or discover until someone is actually working for you. Of course there are plenty of paper tigers out there who look like rock stars on paper only to show up and barely be able to spell their name on a report.

Then again you occasionally have someone within the organization who is kicking tail and taking names with little or no formalized education that you know of.

I don’t think standardized testing will necessarily mitigate that or show us the differents between the rock stars and the rocks. Unfortunately we’ve seen this play out in IT certifications especially towards 2000 where MCSEs were popping out of the woodwork without a lick of experience or skill thanks to boot camp style providers. Where there’s money, there’ll be a way…

At best I see just another loophole for them to jump through, which sure as Bob's your uncle, they will.

**gonenomad** · 03-30-2009 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by bazonkers

Maybe there needs to be an external independent organization that gives the comp exams for programs as opposed to the school itself.

The problem with this is that graduate degrees by their very nature are unique. For my first masters degree I studied earthquake triggered debris flows. How many people are going to get degrees focusing on this subject? Enough to justify the cost involved in writing a comprehensive exam on the topic? I doubt it. Graduate school is about exploring a focused topic. There is no way to assess this as there are an infinite number of topics. Thus an infinite number of exams would be required.

**TCord1964** · 03-30-2009 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by friendorfoe

Then again you occasionally have someone within the organization who is kicking tail and taking names with little or no formalized education that you know of.

OK, you got me. That's me.

However, I do read a lot. While some people are spending their time on "Twilight" or "Harry Potter", I can usually be found reading a marketing or sales book that isn't part of any of my classes.

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**2peaches2oranges** · 04-06-2009 02:37 AM

more discussion in the feedback section of the original article, even today.

I am considering starting this program next week. I don't want to start and then find myself stuck because the program ended or was stopped by protest.

Should I continue to look elsewhere?

**friendorfoe** · 04-06-2009 04:28 AM

I wouldn't worry about it too much. By this point there's too much invested to pull the plug I would imagine and usually where there's investments there's likely legally binding contracts. ;)

Of course that's just my $.02

**Abner** · 04-06-2009 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by friendorfoe

I wouldn't worry about it too much. By this point there's too much invested to pull the plug I would imagine and usually where there's investments there's likely legally binding contracts. ;)

Of course that's just my $.02

Yup, lo que dijo el.

Abner :)

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