Need some guidance pulling this off...

Alright, I'm very obviously a new face to this forum and don't know many faces. However I am a frequent enough flyer to have identified one face (namely, Randall) who seems to be on a mission similiar to mine; for that reason, I will direct this question to him (and anyone else with insight).

My goal is to get my MSITM from TUI University by the middle of 2010. I earned my Bachelor's Degree (Business) from them in 1 year and 7 months with only 20 military credits to start. I did this by carrying a course overload for the majority of the time spent attending the University as well as taking classes during every session and sub-session offered. Anywho, my goal after getting that MSITM is to apply to and get accepted to Northcentral University's DBA program. My questions are as follows;

-What are the advantages and disadvantages of pursuing a DBA without first having an MBA? I've seen it done before, but I'm not sure from an employement or difficulty standpoint what challenges may arise.

-I know that business positions can get pretty picky about the business school you attend...are IT positions the same way?

-Please give me a decent run down of the DBA (or PhD) program in business at NCU. I would like to know how the school works, the relative difficulty of the courses and any personal challenges that you would like me to look out for.

By the way...I'll also mention that I am currently enrolled in the MSBI (Master of Science in Business Intelligence) program of American Sentinel University. I'm not planning on starting the MSITM at TUI until October (when Tuition Assistance recycles), so there will be few months of overlapping there. I expect to be finished with the MSBI by January, which brings me to my final question...

-For a BI and IT professional, can I still expect to be taken seriously as a "manager" if I waltz into an interview with a DBA for a position that calls for an MBA?

I am 24 years old and active duty military. Thanks ahead of time for any guidance on these matters!

 

I know this is for Dr. Randell, but I just want to cut a little here.
Wow! Somebody beats me in education. I earned my Bachelor degree in 24 month while on active duty with First Marine Regiment. And 19 months, that is insane. Anyway, if you have a Bachelor degree and working on your Master at American Sentinel University. Why would you want to go for another Master degree before starting DBA? You should skip TUI Uiversity program, and going through Northcentral University.

What is your goal for a career? It seems that you want to be an IT job, then I assume you're in Communication (G-6/S-6)?? In business, maybe top graduate schools would make a big different in the job, but Information Technology is totally different. Mostly is experience, if without experience you might have to start the the entry level.

Have you ever thought about being a Marine Officer? If might take the advantage of the post 9/11 GI Bill and the Yellow Ribbon Program by attending local college.


-For a BI and IT professional, can I still expect to be taken seriously as a "manager" if I waltz into an interview with a DBA for a position that calls for an MBA?

Maybe you're over qualified, and don't get the job.

 

Thank you for such an involved response!

To answer your question as to why I am going back to TUI University instead of going directly to Northcentral, the answer is because I can't. As of February this year, NCU stopped accepting graduates from DETC schools which is what ASU is. I enrolled in ASU for the uniqueness of the program (for a hot search, see if you can find the number of Business Intelligence majors offered at online schools) not nessesarily the prestige of the accredidation, which I imagine will work for me by nature of the low tides of graduates in this specific field.

I decided to go back to TUI because it is a formula which I am familiar with, and know that I can finish ahead of schedule. After getting my bachelors in such record time, I doubt the school will fight me much on a course overload which other schools likely would. And even though my trade is business, my passion is IT, hence the degree choice.

I will be putting in a commissioning package for the U.S. Navy later this year. Provided I get a conditional release from the Marines, that should put me in OCS by the middle of next year.

I will be opting "out" of the new GI Bill. The 9/11 GI bill isn't particularly kind to those pursuing graduate degrees. Reason being is that they cutoff for the max tuition it will pay is set at the highest rate of "undergraduate" tuition in the state. If that happens to be $300 a credit, than thats all you get regardless to what program you attend graduate or otherwise (plus BAH which doesn't apply to online learners and a 1000 book stipend which is basically pizza money). I have never heard of the Yellow Ribbon program.

My career goals are somewhat broad for someone with such specific educational goals. If I had to spit out my idea of a dream job right now, it would be a high level manager at a technology company like Northrop Grumman, Harris Inc. or Robert Half. Techonlogy interests me but business is truly what challenges my skills in the way I know they need to be challenged to keep me satisfied with my job. I can say with 100% confidence that I have no desire to program, code or engineer anything, though I am open to gaining knowledge on it. For instance, I know SQL; enough of it to build databases which I have done freelance for years. However, a job as a Database developer or Administrator isn't appealing to me.

To comment on your last statement; is that really common that people are denied for being over qualified? I haven't been a civilian in over 5 years, so I have no clue. I figured it would be about picking the most qualified individual for the job at hand. Would it help to market myself as affordable on my resume, or will I end up having to eventually pick up that MBA regardless of the order I do it in?

 

First of all, congrats to both of you, TEKMAN and American Prodigy, on your accomplishments so far! School while on active duty is definitely challenging!

American Prodigy,
I wouldn't rule out the Post-9/11 GI bill just yet; unless you are planning to stay active duty. There is legislation making it's rounds to allow distance learners to receive BAH. It's not a sure thing, but I'd at least give it until August to make a determination; you never know. Also, the undergraduate rates in some states is actually not bad. I know it's fairly low in California, but if you end up at Lejuene it shoots up to $482. Here in Maryland it's capped at $436, which is higher than my graduate tuition. But you're right, depending on the state and if you get BAH or not, sticking with Chapter 30 might be the best bet.

Here's a link to some info on the Yellow Ribbon Program:

http://www.gibill.va.gov/GI_Bill_Info/CH33/Yellow_ribbon.htm

Anyways, I can't speak with much authority on DBA's and how they may be perceived by HR, but I can tell you that even though you don't want to be in a technical position as a programmer, engineer, etc., it is hard to become a manager of people in those positions without at least some good working knowledge or demonstrable ability in them. I'm not saying you need to go get an IT or engineering degree, though it helps, but you need to show you at least understand the fundamental processes.

I work for a defense company now, and a lot of our senior managers have intense technical backgrounds. Not necessarily degrees, but they know the jobs of their subordinates very well. I don't know if all defense companies are like this one; I would imagine the successful ones are, but it's something to keep in mind. Working for other companies or the federal government may be different, but you sound like someone who wants to strive to be the best at whatever he does, so I'm just laying that out there.

Also, if you are planning a career with a defense company in management, I highly suggest taking ACQ 101 with Defense Acquisitions University (http://www.dau.mil). It will really help you with the processes and acronyms when dealing with program management. It's free to active duty personnel, 100% online, and all you will need is your CO to sign an approval for you through your S-3 training.

Lastly, in my short term experience in the civilian world of defense companies, I've never heard of someone being denied employment due to being overqualified. It may happen, but it hasn't happened here. I have noticed plenty of people being denied for wanting too much salary for what the position was worth. Maybe it's common for someone with a DBA seeking a MBA's job, but asking for a DBA salary for the MBA position; I'm not sure...

Good luck with whatever you choose, and Semper Fi!

 

Well, as far as I know most of the Manager has extensive experience in their field. It is the same thing in the Marine Corps; the junior Marines don't know certain thing in their field, they go to the senior (Management) for the guidance. Here is what it means over qualified, let see if you're interviewed for a position that required a 5 years experience and a Bachelor degree. If you have 10 years experience and a Bachelor, Master, and Doctoral. Whoever interviews might believe that you're not shooting for this position because you might leave in the company in a short period of time. Of course, if you're hired for this position and 5 months down to the road you find a better job then you jump. In the Military (Enlisted or Junior Officer) we have contract, in the Civilian world you can leave the company at anytime.

Are you leaving the service or you're ECP to become a Naval Officer?

 

As usual, I would like to take a second to thank everyone for their excellent guidance on my unorthodox dilema!

jaer57

I was not aware that their was any interest in providing BAH for online learners. If this is at least a possibility, than it is definately worth my time to follow. Thank you so much for your information on the Yellow Ribbon Program. I will ensure that I get this information around to my contacts at the online schools that I will be attending in the future to see if an agreement will be or has been established.

I will look into defense aquisition university. From what I can tell, it seems to be quite an established system. I will investigate it further. As I understand, every branch of service has an online correspondance course system; hopefully this one is different from the Marine Corps variant.

I am a guy who desires to be challenged and isn't necessarily on a quest to strike it rich. If I could come out of the service making between 70 and 80, than I would be a happy man. I would take a job meant for an MBA mainly due to the fact that I doubt there are jobs specifically designed for a DBA, but to make more money than an MBA is certainly not my goal. I am more in search of personal accomplishment and competitiveness in the practical flood of MBA graduates. Semper Fidelis!


TEKMAN

When it comes to experience, I'm pretty much dead in the water until I get out of the military. I have been told that I should simply get out and get commissioned in the reserves whether than moving forward with a commissioning package. If this navy commissioning package doesn't pan out as planned, that is exactly what I intend to do. As far as credability in the IT field, I will have a masters degree in IT management and a masters degree in business intelligence (for the business side systems analysis trade). While I would like to get more experience in my field before I hit the civilian world, I am really finding that hard to do as anything but a freelancer (I do have 3 kids and a full time job after all)!

As of right now, I have no plans to leave the service. If my Navy package doesn't work out (in time), I will get out of active duty and go reserves. I completely understand the notion that a highly trained individual may be using a company as a stepping stone and have primed my resume for such speculation by making clever use of such buzzwords as commitment, longevity and career focus. We'll see how far that takes me, but if it at least gets me an interview, I doubt that I will have any problem driving the point home.

 

I will not be shocked if something gets implemented that prevents people on active duty who are using the new GI Bill benefits from receiving BAH since Uncle Sam is already providing us BAH or housing.

 

Well, good luck to you for the Naval Officer package. I left the Marine Corps active duty to the reservist...then applied for the Marine Corps OCS. After 8 weeks of training, I was boarded for failing the LRC 2. So, I understand things do happen on the way.

Anyway, have take a look at Jones International University and Capella University's DBA program? They might accept you with NA degrees.

 

airtorn;

That restriction is already written into the bill (believe it or not). Great intuition skills though!

TEKMAN

I will have a closer look at those programs. Originally, I wasn't interested in either simply because of the expense of the programs. However, when you factor in the fact that I'd essentially be paying for an IT degree as an entrance requirement to NCU, it just may add up.

 

If I were in your shoes, I would complete the MS program you are in and go for an MBA from TUI. Then the PhD from NCU.

-What are the advantages and disadvantages of pursuing a DBA without first having an MBA? I've seen it done before, but I'm not sure from an employement or difficulty standpoint what challenges may arise.
The advantages are easy transfer of credits to a DBA program since you have a foundation. I would not thik it would be an issue.

-I know that business positions can get pretty picky about the business school you attend...are IT positions the same way?
IT positions are more about experience and certifications.

-Please give me a decent run down of the DBA (or PhD) program in business at NCU. I would like to know how the school works, the relative difficulty of the courses and any personal challenges that you would like me to look out for.
You have 12 weeks to complete the course and there is usually 6-10 papers due (depending on the class). No teamwork or discussions need to be done. It is really a lot of paper writing which is just like TUI. The courses are not easy but not impossible. It is hard to say how difficult they are because it depends on your background. The stats class and the first class that focused on APA were the tough ones for me. It may be different for others.

-For a BI and IT professional, can I still expect to be taken seriously as a "manager" if I waltz into an interview with a DBA for a position that calls for an MBA?
I would say if you have the experience you will be taken serious.

 

TheAmericanProdigy,

First off, thanks for your service and congratulations on the completion of your bachelor's degree! You are clearly an intelligent and ambitious young man. Your enthusiasm and drive will serve you well, in your studies, in the military, and in the civilian world.

That being said, I'm going to take a couple of swipes at your plans as laid out. I'm assuming that your goal is as you stated, a IT management position, with a focus on business intelligence (BI). I feel that you might be falling prey to the "supersize" mentality when it comes to your education plans - if a masters degree is good, then a doctorate must be better, right? Not necessarily. For most people, a DBA degree is viewed as preparation for a career in academia, not as a Super-MBA. Frankly, I don't see how the time and expense of a NCU DBA prepares you for a career in IT management. You need to ask yourself if your educational goals and your career goals are truly in alignment. I don't think that they are, and I will try to lay out a case that proves this, and offer some alternatives.

BI is a relatively new field, and the people who are in demand are the people with practical experience. Many BI projects take place under the framework of some larger implementation / deployment - for example, a Fortune 500 company rolling out SAP as its ERP platform might have several BI experts, and possibly a project manager dedicated to BI as part of the deployment team. A smaller implementation might only have 1-2 BI consultants reporting up to a technical PM. Most positions are either contract, contract-to-hire, or consultant jobs where you might nominally have the same employer, but are moving from customer to customer every six months to a year or so. On-the-job training is so important that many consulting firms will place their associates (new consultants, usually fresh out of undergrad) on their first few BI projects as unbilled staff. Without real-world experience, you are going to find it difficult to get a foot in the BI door. That's not to say it can't be done, but please don't expect to muster out of the service on Friday and walk into a senior IT management position running a team of BI consultants on Monday morning.

There are several paths that can get you where you want to be. Judging from the potential employers you listed in one of your previous posts, it seems like you are leaning towards the consultant/contractor route. You mentioned that you are about to finish a DETC masters program in BI. Does your school offer any sort of placement services for new graduates? Do you have enough interactions with your classmates that you would feel comfortable networking with them to find an opportunity? Once you've gotten the job, are you going to be prepared for the travel and business development expectations that come with consulting? If you can find a job and get into the field building experience, you might want to put off starting another degree program for now.

(As a brief aside, stay the hell away from Robert Half. They have a reputation as a body shop, not any place you could build a real career, and treating their employees like livestock. I've heard enough horror stories to last a lifetime.)

I don't know how much time you have left in the military, but the best way to get ahead in a field that values hands-on experience is to get in the field and start building that experience. You mentioned the possibility of moving into the reserves. If you can locate an entry level job with your undergrad and your DETC masters degree, AND you can move into the reserves immediately, AND you're convinced that this is the career for you, then my advice to you is to get moving, get on with a company and start building experience. Start documenting project management experience, get your PMP certification. Once you've got 3-4 years of experience, consider doing an executive MBA program or other RA master's degree. Then you should be at a senior level consultant or manager position, well positioned to advance to higher levels in the future.

Best of luck to you!

 

TheAmericanProdigy,

I do a lot of work with many large government contractors. When you get into the DOD contractors the vast majority (but not all) of the upper management folks that I have met retired out of the military as an O6 or above. The command skills and the relationships they left behind in the military are what get them hired. Keep in mind that contractors exist for profits so any avenue they can exercise to obtain and maintain contracts is a potential source of continued work. I recommend you search their job boards and look at the requirements for a position of interest. Call the HR folks and specifically ask them for their payscale. In so doing you will be better able to ascertain your education and experience requirements. I also recommend you search for the bios of folks currently holding positions for which you wish to obtain. Call them for advice, most folks are willing to offer advice to anyone who approaches them appropriately.

You desired objective in salary is within reach with a bachelors and relevant experience, however most of the resumes I see are littered with masters degrees from some very good (ranked) schools. I have never seen a resume from a contractor (and that includes Northrop) that included any on the big three or the schools you are currently citing. It doesn't mean that these schools won't work for you or that folks aren't working there with these degrees. (I have reviewed hundreds of management and staffing plans for these contractors as well as escalation hierarchys through president positions.)

Of all your plans I would recommend you pursue the officer route, even if you do so in the reserves you will find the opportunities much greater.

Best of luck,

Semper Fi

 

Kevin is absolute right about opportunities as an officer, and he reminded me of what I forgot to mention. My company's president, CEO, and a couple managers are all retired Naval Officers. A majority of our business comes from the Navy. The networking they have available to them from their careers as Naval Officers is breathtaking; they know everybody! Don't underestimate the value of some good networking. Every time we go to a design review or contract meeting it's like a reunion with them...

 

Thank everyone for their responses and insight!

You guys may very well be right. It is hard for me to defend my goals because I am only familiar with one side of the fence. The working world is a complete mystery to me so I value to opinions of those who know it better than I do.

You know, pursuing a doctorate is a personal goal of mine that I can't seem to let go. This goal is so strong that when faced with the question of whether I would pursue an MBA or a DBA if I could only pursue one, the answer consistently to get my DBA which has lead me to my current position. The reason why I am chosing to get an MSITM instead of an MBA from TUI is because there is always the possibility that I will enter this DBA program and become a statistic. In the event that this highly unlikely occurance actually happens (I am active duty after all), I want a strong MBA to fall back on. As much as I love TUI University, I would prefer an MBA from a school with a better name impression or a more prestigious program. This is the logic behind asking what the sentiment on name recognition is in the IT field; naturally I would hate to run into a similiar problem with the MSITM.

It is however a great point that the DBA isn't the super MBA. Sometimes I may get lost in that distinction and forget to open my eyes to the reality of that. I really am in need of some advanced research in the job fields that I am pursuing. I have been lax in doing this because if my current plans are executed on schedule, I won't be out of the military for another 4-5 years; I'm sure we will all agree that a job field can change tremendously in that sort of time. I'm positive that I would be sunk like a rock were I to walk out of the service on Friday into a senior BI position! Immediate prestige is not my goal though I would be ecstatic if my years of schooling counted for SOMETHING. Even if the Marines are footing the bill, this educational journey is still going to be 5-7 years of my life that I'll never get back. While I try to be mindful of what I'm getting myself into in the civilian world, it is a world that I simply know nothing about anymore.

Thanks Randall for responding to my initial questions. I was unaware that the format of NCU's program bore any likeness to that of TUI. I fancy myself an accomplished writer so hopefully NCU will be a nice fit for me!


I think I have found the answers to my questions in all of the involved responses of this thread. Thanks everyone for all of the great advice!