MBA programs that require entrance exams..

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by ChrisH, Nov 19, 2008.

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  1. ChrisH

    ChrisH New Member

    I want to pose a question/thought...and hopefully receive some feedback from the forum....

    GMAT....during my quest for an online MBA program, and subsequent denial from OSU's MBA and acceptance into Chadron's MBA, I have found that most top tier and wanna-be top tier programs require a GMAT...why is this??

    Now, I understand the typical answer is something to the effect of "the GMAT is an indicator of program success or failure," but I am not completely sold on that answer...

    The MBA programs I researched all stated that the GMAT is not the single source from which acceptance is based upon, rather acceptance is based upon a culmination of recommendations, resume, undergrad GPA, and GMAT scores...so my question is this...if the GMAT is not the single source of acceptance, then why is it the singular reason for denial???


    In my situation, I had a 3.75 undergrad GPA, OUTSTANDING recommendations from instructors holding PhDs, and a resume that has over 12 years of significant leadership and management experience...but, my GMAT score was in the 300s...so I was not granted acceptance...
    The GMAT its a standardized test, does it really matter what the score is??

    I mean, Research has proven that the GMAT has basically no bearing on how well a student will perform in an MBA program... so why do schools weigh the GMAT so heavily??

    I basically have been racking my brain trying to answers these questions, and I have come up with these possible answers...

    First, the GMAT score must have some effect on rankings of the MBA program...meaning, the more students with high GMAT scores, must equate to a perceived quality MBA program, thus increasing its perceived ranking, which is listed in the US news and world report college rankings...thoughts?? If this is truly the case...to me, that seems despicable. Weeding out viable applicants, so the program can increase its rankings...how horrible.

    Second, I could almost accept the premise that the GMAT is used as a filter because there may be limited physical seating in the school house...but I said almost because I applied to an online MBA program, isn't the seating unlimited??

    It seems so "1980s" for a college to act as a snooty gatekeeper...basing the decision to get into "their" college on a silly score...Sure, I can remember back in the late 80s, early 90s, when people tight rolled the bottom of their jeans, listened to def leopard...and personal status was the "thing." So, high status sometimes meant getting into the best college. Thus, standardized tests scores were used to "weed" out the numerous applicants, simply because there was limited physical seating space...

    However, fast forward to 2008...today, internet technologies have pretty much eliminated the physical space issue...so why are colleges still largely based in this 1980s/90s mentality of applicant acceptance? Why not educate everyone who applies to the program, especially if they have the financial resources to support it? Isn't that the ultimate goal of humanity, to have an educated utopia type society?

    Is it because the admissions committees are made up of individuals of the "old school," and have not fully accepted the capabilities of internet technologies? I don't know, but its definitely fun to ponder?? Any thoughts??

    Chris
     
  2. TEKMAN

    TEKMAN Semper Fi!

    Chris,

    With your GPA, and recommendation; why didn't you apply to Colorado State University's MBA or Texas A&M at Commerce, or University of Houston at Victoria's? Their MBA GMAT is waived if you have certain GPA and 10 years experiences.

    For what I was told that GMAT does play a big part in the admission. Most of the MBA that don't require GMAT of course don't really care about the course. However, those require as a minium of 400 - 450 range. Maybe your under 400 would change OSU's decission.
     
  3. DBA_Curious

    DBA_Curious New Member

    I'll play devil's advocate as someone with adjunct experience.

    The GMAT is helpful at leveling the playing field for incoming candidates. It can be incredibly stressful in classes like Finance if a good number of the students don't have a given amount of numerical literacy. You either lose some of the class because they can't follow or some because they're bored with the effort to explain the material in very basic terms. Imagine a derivatives class taught to people who struggle with quantitative thinking.

    And the GMAT isn't a barrier per se. It's only a barrier until one can accomplish the right score. If your score is particularly low, it means you may have some brushing up to do on math-related subjects.

    Just a take from the school's perspective.
     
  4. mbaonline

    mbaonline New Member

    I think most B-schools that care about rankings are also AACSB accredited (or want to become AACSB like Fort Hays). AACSB requires its member schools to require the GMAT (or nearly so), thus making it a universal requirement. Some schools waive it with a JD, another earned Masters degree, occasionally CPA and sometimes - rarely- depending on a high undergrad GPA.

    As for online programs having unlimited space, unfortunately no. The number of classes is usually limited by the number of faculty and other real constraints such as administrative oversight.

    Have you tried appealing the decision to OSU?
     
  5. Daniel Luechtefeld

    Daniel Luechtefeld New Member

    For the most prestigious B-schools, this approach would weaken the value of their brands.
     
  6. lovetheduns

    lovetheduns New Member

    Not all programs are created equal even undergrad programs.

    Case in point, as a high school student I was accepted into UNC CH with many grants and scholarships. After 2.5 years I had a lot of family issues (was supporting my mother through an accident, put her through school-- and my brain was not in the right place to continue my undergrad-- hence why I quit for awhile). When I went back, I found the school did not offer anyone who was working in a career and going to school during the day with kids fresh out of high school. So I dabbled at UMUC (33 credits I believe), NCSU (9 credits) and then found a place at a local college, NC Wesleyan.

    The college had a satellite campus close to my work place (the school itself is located in a small town about an 1.5 hour away). I went there. The classes were 5 (no longer) or 8 weeks long. I will graduate with a high GPA much like your's. The statistics course I took was NOT AT ALL the same as the Stats course I attempted at UNC CH (withdrew) or NCSU (my mother during this class was diagnosed with kidney cancer and had emergency surgery right at midterms-- I ended up making a D and coming out with a C+ in a Financial Accounting class a the same-time).

    In fact, my professor at NC Wesleyan in Statistics was one of the Stats professors at NCSU. A religion professor I had at NCWC was a tenured professor at UNC CH and I had another professor who was an associate at Duke. However, back to the point the Stats class was no way the same. The professor really focused on things we would need to know for Accounting and Business majors. He spent significant amount of time allowing students to work on homework during class (4 hour classes on Mondays) an walking students through problems in very innovative ways. I learned an immense amount from him, but I will admit I don't think the Stats was quite as grueling.

    I experienced the same with a Macro-Econ course at a local community college (which was able to be transferred into my school-- it was cheaper). The course work was challenging (as it had been when I attempted it one summer session at UNC CH years ago) but I do think there were allowances given to the students and more help in preparing students for the exam versus really testing out the students gained knowledge on the material at large. I knew my grades and received the top grade in the course-- and I know she had to have curved the grade even higher than what it put me at (I received a perfect score) (our blackboard indicated the statistics for each homework, quiz, and exam so I know the class was struggling).

    So my point is that even though with a high GPA, schools have to have another way to level out students because it is most impossible for them to be able to judge the rigor of each undergraduate program. A GMAT provides that information in some ways.

    I believe this is truly the point as it is similar to what I learned while working as an intern in the UNC CH Orthopedic Surgery Residency Program years ago. My job was to take a stack full of applications into the program and sort them by a certain order based on certain parameters. MCAT was weighted heavily as was graduation from certain medical schools (i.e. Duke, Harvard, Stanford, UNC CH, Hopkins, etc)-- the other stuff reference letters, undergrad, etc just was not quite as important. Not to say it was impossible if you had a lower MCAT, came from a lesser known medical school-- but it was more difficult to get to the interview stages.

    Online education does not mean a school has unlimited capacity. Personally, I struggle when sitting in a class with those who just are having problems early on with the material. I struggled in a Corporate Finance course with a partner on a project who just had almost no clue nor capacity to understand the material. Blunt, but true. I ended up doing the entire project (luckily the professor required both of us to sign off on each page of the research paper, financial statements, ppt, etc of what we did. When he didn't turn in pieces of the analysis, I was able to leave blank pages). I am not saying you are not capable, but I am telling you from my own personal experience that I am relieved some schools do have some standards as it was beyond painful trying to learn in a course where some students could not keep up.

    My advice if you are really looking for coursework which requires a GMAT is to pick up a few of the test prep books. My best friend spent 3 months dutifully prepping for the GMAT and ended up making just over a 550 (and she is by far not a math whiz!).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 21, 2008
  7. ChrisH

    ChrisH New Member

    Hi!-
    Thanks for your post! My only argument, and you alluded to this as well, is that I don't truly believe the GMAT is a proper indicator of success or failure in a business program...especially in the quantitative area.

    The reason is say this is because during the quantitative portion of the GMAT, there was very few arithmetic style problems, but rather more sufficiency type questions...IMO these type of questions have no real bearing on true mathematical problem solving that is typically seen in accounting, economics, business calculus, and finance...my undergrad is business, and i did very well in these courses. So, i don't buy into the GMAT being an indicator of success especially in the quantitative area. I did very well on my essays...but they were completely dismissed. Quantitatively, the GMAT is just a strange way to test applicants on their ability to calculate and implement items like CAPM in Finance, or contribution margins in Accounting, which are largely based in arithmetic style work...
     
  8. ChrisH

    ChrisH New Member

    Does anyone agree with my inputs about the GMAT, and its ability to predict an applicant's ability to succeed in an MBA program??
     
  9. lovetheduns

    lovetheduns New Member

    I don't disagree that it is the only indicator or the sole indicator of success in an MBA program (or any kind of program-- such as Accountancy, etc).

    HOWEVER--- I think it does show an ability for a student to prepare for a standardized test and know how to brush up on math skills and verbal skills (albeit even more difficult skills than what would be required out of an accounting/finance coursework) which I think is the point of the exam-- which is why schools use it as one point of consideration for their program. Simply put it is used to weed folks out.
     
  10. Perhaps the point that's missed is that you may not feel that your GMAT score predicts your level of success, but that the schools do (rightly or wrongly). As an example, if you got a 390, 88% of the GMAT takers got a higher score than you did. Anyone scoring in the 300's or low 400's falls into the bottom quartile, and all things being equal (GPA, experience) it's a reason for denial.

    If you're pleased with Chadron's program then it's probably better to run with it and drop the whole GMAT thing - and you'll probably prove OSU and other schools wrong with the fact that you can succeed with a low GMAT.

    If you're disappointed with OSU's denial then you can either petition for conditional acceptance (if they offer it) or prep and take the GMAT again.

    The GMAT is meant to measure basic verbal, mathematical and analytical writing skills, not motivation and desire. If you took the test and performed poorly because you were fazed by the test (or some other reason) then I'd let it rest as you've been accepted at Chadron.
     
  11. Vinipink

    Vinipink Accounting Monster

    I am a product of no GMAT thinking! I don't well with this type of testing, I refuse to pay money for them, and I don't think the measure anything, only to robe you from your hard earned money. Hey it just me.:eek:
     
  12. lovetheduns

    lovetheduns New Member

    Guitarmark said it best. For those schools that require a GMAT, a score in the 300s is just bad, really bad. :( The score range of the test is 200-800.

    Personally, I prepped for the GMAT and changed my view as to what I wanted. I had essentially a double bachelors in Business and Accounting. When I graduate from undergrad I will have a total of 154 credits (at the time I went back to school I wanted to sit for the CPA exam and needed 150 credits to qualify over 70 credits of mine are business/accounting specific). I decided based on my job (and the fact I will not sit for the CPA) I wanted to balance out my heavy business centric focus with more of a technology graduate. My school happened to not require a GMAT nor GRE for the MIS program (Doctorate requires the GRE or GMAT I believe).

    Your score leads me to think that maybe you stepped in and decided to take it cold thinking your 12 years of management/business experience would compensate. If you seriously want to get into an AACSB program (I think they most require a GMAT), spend some time prepping with the plethora of test books out there so that you best position yourself in those schools admissions game.
     
  13. pugbelly

    pugbelly New Member

    The GMAT, like other standardized tests, is not a guarantee of future success or failure, but it is an indicator. Some people do well on tests, others don't. I think we all accept this reality, but the fact of the matter is that testing is the best, cheapest tool schools have to gauge the skill level of incoming students. It is not the only tool of course, but it is the best one in terms of neutrality. What I mean is that no two undergraduate institutions is the same. A student earning a 4.0 at one school may only be able to earn a 2.75 at another. A student earning an "A" at one university may be capable of earning only a "B" in the same class at the same university but with a different teacher. There are so many variables! The GMAT eliminates all of those variables, although it does hurt potentially great students that don't perform well on standardized tests. It's not perfect, which is why the score represents only a portion of the admissions criteria. The GMAT creates selectivity within a university or a program within a university. We have to accept the fact that all students are not created equal. We are not all equally capable of learning or testing at the same level. To remove the GMAT from the admissions criteria of selective schools would be to suggest that all students are equally capable, and that is not the case. Will some very good students be eliminated in the process? Yes, of course, but the test will help more than it hurts.

    Pug
     
  14. Bruboy

    Bruboy New Member

    I believe that the GMAT and other tests such as the GRE simply screen for a current level of preparedness and help to target weaknesses for a perspective student. If you feel the need to attend a top school and that it will yield a positive return for your career then you should attend the best that you can afford and you will need to take the GMAT. I do have my doubts about any substantial differences in the quality of the education but the networking component could be quite valuable.

    With respect to the weeding out process I would submit that if the school you attend makes the coursework challenging and at a truly graduate level then the program will weed out attendees. When I was taking classes for my MBA I noticed a typical dropout rate of about 20% per class. Although it may only be my perception many students were simply not prepared. Perhaps the GMAT would have saved these students some money by pointing out their weaknesses to them prior to attempting the program.

    One area that the GMAT or other tests will not weed out perspective students when it comes to DL is the level of computer literacy required and the level of self discipline needed to succeed. DL is truly not for everyone and is especially true for those that have difficulty working independently. During my DL studies I had several students that were B&M students and were completely lost in the DL environment.
     
  15. Bruboy

    Bruboy New Member

    I would disagree that the GMAT eliminates these variables. Taking the correct preparatory classes for the GMAT with the proper coaching would help anyone get a good score on the GMAT. For those seeking an exceptional score there are professional test takers that could be hired to take the GMAT for you. I understand that this is one reason why the testing centers are shifting to biometric identity verification in place of documents that can be forged.

    I've read that business students are notorious for cheating and many will do anything to get into a top school. Perhaps this could explain the current state of many large businesses and the top tier graduates that run them. Here's an article on the subject of biometrics http://www.nullsession.net/?p=1518.
     
  16. Vinipink

    Vinipink Accounting Monster

    It hurt me, I took the GMAT and I was under one point of the desired score at Florida International University. The told me that the GMAT was not the only factor, even with recommendation letters and my high GPA, they sent me a letter of rejection that specific indicated the I was below the minimum standard(one point) from the GMAT. Furthermore, when I finished my MBA in Accounting and asked them if the would take me or waive the GMAT, they said no way Jose, that I have to take the GMAT again with a minimum acceptable score. However, Florida Atlantic University accepted me and waive the GMAT.

    You mean discrimination, right?

    That is true and exams does not measure all the students.But some people tend to believe that is the case.

    Not really. The only way I see this as tool to masquerade the face of discrimination, it such protect schools to have to say yes to everyone and when they say no, the could blame it to the test score.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 23, 2008
  17. pugbelly

    pugbelly New Member

    True, I suppose someone could take enough prepatory course work to pass the GMAT with a good score, at least in theory. As I said, it's not perfect. The GMAT is only a tool. The other option would be to allow the course work itself to weed out those students that aren't up for the challenge, but that could be potentially disruptive to the remaining students, particularly in a format that does a lot with group projects. There are plenty of schools out there that do not require the GMAT. My suggestion to those that do not like the GMAT process is to select a non-GMAT school. There is no perfect system.

    Pug
     
  18. lovetheduns

    lovetheduns New Member

    Vinipink-- it sucks you were not accepted into a particular school when you had just one point of their required GMAT score.

    However, I don't think you can call it discrimination if you did not meet all of their criteria.

    I can't imagine that letters of recommendation are heavily weighed over a GMAT or undergraduate performance-- UNLESS they are so out of the park (same as an essay) that it just blows the admissions committees brains.

    Unfortunately, schools do not have unlimited seats (whether virtual or physical) and someone is going to end up the cut off point no matter how close to the standard that there was.

    To get my last two credits for undergrad, I took two Dantes tests. There is a wonderful forum over at Instantcert, and I remember reading a couple of folks who had prepped for their exams dutifully and ended up literally making just one point short of the minimum score. It sucks no matter which way you split it and I remember while studying there would have been nothing worse than to make just one point less than the minimum. :(
     
  19. Vinipink

    Vinipink Accounting Monster

    Yeah, it sucks, but as you can see I am much happier now! :D
    I don't think is called discrimination but it can be called academical hindrances(which is some type of discrimination).

    It is their time and not mine. There are more options out here and I exercised those options.

    Yeah I know the feeling, I am glad there many alternatives, to accomplish the same thing!

    That is what you call life!
     
  20. lovetheduns

    lovetheduns New Member

    You have a great attitude Vinipink. :)

    And OBVIOUSLY the GMAT one pointer has not held you back at all with your accomplishments. :)
     

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