US DoE Site with Doctoral Degrees that are Equivalent to the Ph.D.

An interesting site that discusses what US research doctorates are and then lists what the US National Science Federation considers the equivalent of a Ph.D.

It is an interesting list. The J.D. is not on there as it is a first professional degree. The D.Min. is on the list as are some rather interesting doctoral titles. This goes against conventional wisdom which says the D.Min. is not the equivalent.

Our own Dr. Bear is mentioned on the DoE site under the link for US accreditation I believe.

North

 

I should add there is also a list of degrees which have "doctor" in the title & are not equivalent to a Ph.D. No surprises on the list (e.g. Pharmacy 2 years beyond the B.A.)
http://www.ed.gov/NLE/USNEI/us/professional-studies.html

North

 

Below is the link I left of this post (the one with the equivalents to the Ph.D.)
http://www.ed.gov/NLE/USNEI/us/research-doctorate.html

 

It's surprising that some of the degree titles listed are considered equivalent to the Ph.D. My limited frame of reference is comparing the Ph.D. to the D.B.A., Ed.D. and the D.Min. - all professional degrees. (The Ph.D. being a research degree.) Of course, I guess ya gotta wonder what is meant by "equivalency" in this context.

In midcourse of my Ph.D., I had an option to switch to a Ed.D. The dissertation was not expected to generate new knowledge. In other words, it was "easier" (supposedly).

I'd bet a bunch 'o academics would take issue with such equivalency statements. Of course, not that I would ...

Barry Foster

 

This is only a guess, but such a list would be needed by the National Science Foundation to qualify candidates for research grants and employment.

 

No question that the NSF's equivalency would not be universally recognized. My impression has always been that Ph.D.'s are a breed unto themselves and would be amused to have a D.Mus or a D.Min. considered equivalent. Sometimes they are not too sure about those Ed.D.'s either. Jason Baker's site calls the Ph.D. the creme de la creme of doctorates and I think that is the normal perception.

North

 

The D.Min. was invented as a professional degree for ministers who had a three year Master's (M.Div.) and, I think, to put them in the same level as lawyers. Lawyers, not satisfied with the LLB, transformed them into the J.D.

While the D.Min. is an admirable achievement, there are so many running around today that in my mind, it has become a "Mickey Mouse" degree compared with the Ph.D. (no offense meant to Russell and others who have earned a D.Min.). Maybe Russell should comment as he already has the D.Min., and is pursuing the Ph.D. from Potchefstroom. Clearly he does not view the D.Min. as equivalent.

Craig

 

All doctorates (Ph.D., Ed.D., DBA, D.Min. etc.) could possibly be considered "equivalent" in the sense that each is indeed a "doctoral" degree. However, the Ph.D. by its very design has a much stronger research component, while the professional doctorates focus more on the practicing of the profession.

I disagree that the D.Min. (since there are "so many running around") has become a Mickey Mouse degree. If true, this logic could also be used regarding Ph.D.'s who are now performing entry level jobs because so many now hold the degree.

When I earned the D.Min. (96) it required three years to complete, course work with a cohort, and a dissertation. While the courses did indeed focus on the practice of ministry (counseling, advanced exegesis for sermon prep, etc.), each course had an academic component as well. The dissertation was guided by a doctoral committee, included historical research of my topic (including proper documentation), along with practical concerns. The dissertation was approved based on correct structure, design, content, grammar, bibliography, etc.

The purpose of the Ph.D. is totally different, more research oriented, with the goal of making a contribution to the field of knowledge in one's discipline. So in this regard, professional doctorates and the Ph.D. are not equivalent--simply because their purpose is different.

Russell,
Who would prefer Minnie over Mickey.

 

Russell,

I would agree! However, before the advent of the D.Min., most ministers were pleased enough with the M.Div. I do think there was a professional envy (if such is a possibility in the ministry ) of those who had a doctorate and were at the pinnacle of their profession (e.g., lawyers and JD's).

Also, seminaries were looking for another cash-generating program with which to hook their alumni.

Craig

 

I don't know that I would agree with this assumption for several reasons:

1) We really do not know that most ministers were pleased. True, most did not pursue higher degrees, but again, the Ph.D. was designed more for academics.

2) Yesterday's luxury becomes today's necessity. Before the D.Min. was offered, there was no higher professional degree to obtain--so I think this is the reason most did not pursue a higher degree.

3) I don't agree that the D.Min. was designed to be a cash cow for seminaries, or to snag alumni (except in the case of degree mills), but to provide advanced academic/training opportunities for those in ministry.

If the D.Min., DBA, MD, DDS, D.Mus., DA, etc., are all Mickey Mouse degrees, or more precisely, lacking some type of validity, thousands of professionals have been duped. Most medical doctors, dentists, etc., only have the terminal professional doctorate--these degrees being designed/structured to prepare one for the practice of the profession. For one who decides to pursue the Ph.D. in addition to one's terminal professional degree, there must be a desire for additional research oriented studies.

Russell,
Confessing to having earned the D.Min., but also seeking additional studies.

 

Perhaps the reason it is not seen is that it isn't there. The rigor of the two degrees is oriented differently: The D.Min.--practice of ministry; Ph.D.--research/teaching.

If the main reason the D.Min. exists is to give pastors a doctorate, then all professional doctorates must be viewed the same. It is inconsistent logic to extract one professional doctorate from among all others, without applying the same criteria to all. This would mean that the MD only exists to give a physician a doctorate without earning the Ph.D., and the same with the DBA, JD, etc. I personally don't think this is the case.

Admittedly, the D.Min. does provide doctoral level training for the minister, but it was never designed/structured/intended to replace, or become the equivalent of the Ph.D., i.e., in terms of preparing one to teach in an academic context.

Russell,
Who enjoys the dialogue with my fellow South African student.

 

Craig, somewhat off topic but where are you studying for your doctorate and in what field.

Good luck with your program!

North

 

And certainly I agree. But it is kind of sad that the M.D. is much more rigorous than the D.Min., though they are both professional degrees. I could pursue a theological discussion here, but this is not the time nor the place.

Craig

 

Thanks, North. I am doing it through Potchefstroom, in historical theology. This forum, and Russell, have been invaluable in assisting me in selecting an appropriate program.

Craig

 

Perhaps it is because the MD degree program can be entered with only a bachelor's degree, no masters, while the D.Min. builds on a bachelor's degree, plus a 90 hour M.Div. (or equivalent).

BTW, who is serving as your Potch promoter? Ben de Klerk, 2nd cousin to FW de Klerk, is serving as mine. He is head of the practical theology department.

Russell

 

I would *hope* that the M.D. is more rigorous than the D.Min. I would much rather my minister screw up Sunday's sermon than my physician screw up my prostate exam.


Bruce

 

It looks to me like DOE defines "equivalent" to mean "requires a dissertation". That's fair. I see that the J.S.D. is "equivalent" but that the J.D. is not.
Strange, though. The J.D. is the highest degree needed to be a full professor of law at any ABA accredited school.
Nosborne

 

The M.D. degree requires at least four years of study plus an intense internship, which is required before entering practice. I don't think it makes sense to compare it with a PhD. In scope, it is comparable to an MS degree plus a taught PhD.

Neither do I think it makes sense to compare a DMin with a PhD since, as Russell pointed out, the DMin assumes a 90-hour MDiv and, I'll add, professional experience.

In both of these cases, the degree is "loaded" compared to a PhD, which merely requires a 32-hour MA/MS degree for entry.

 

Ann Landers once called clergy the most underpaid professionals in America. Indeed, I knew a army chaplain who prior to coming in the army was being partially paid in corn meal by his civilian church. Where else can you do a 4 yr B.A. and a 90 semester hour graduate degree including Greek and Hebrew courses to be paid a very small salary with more than normal work hours demanded of you day and night. Our denomination is short pastors and this is cited as a factor. That much time, money, and sweat spent on education to make less than 30,000 a year and work more than 40 hr weeks & ensure you throw in a free laborer (pastors wife).

North