Grad School: Online Top Tier or B&M Lower Tier?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by pugbelly, Aug 5, 2008.

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  1. pugbelly

    pugbelly New Member

    Question for the group:

    My wife is looking into grad school options for the MBA. She would prefer to complete her studies in a classroom, but also wants the school to be as highly ranked as possible. The two local schools that are highly ranked for the MBA are University of Maryland and Georgetown. Both schools have tuition rates in the neighborhood of $80k-$100k, so it's really not an option. Ruling those out, here are the choices:

    1) Stay b&m and go to a school like Loyola College of Maryland or George Washington University. Both schools have outstanding local reputations and are always ranked well by US News, but not necessarily for the MBA. Loyola ranks #2 as a Masters University, GWU #54 as a national university. Both are AACSB.

    2) Arizona State. The degree would be completed online with a one week residency requirement. The school is ranked #12 as a national university and #22 for the MBA, and is obviously AASCB. However, it's online.

    I open the floor to opinions...

    Pug
     
  2. macattack

    macattack New Member

    George Washington

    Why? (In order of importance)
    1. Not DL
    2. Local
    3. MBA Ranked virtually equal to ASU by BusinessWeek (2nd Tier - in alphabetical order). Business Week is the more respected ranking by people "in the know" - top 20 MBA types.
    4. Better overall school - Ranked higher by US News for "Best College (54th) vs. ASU (124th).
    5. MBA Ranked higher than ASU by Financial Times.
     
  3. DBA_Curious

    DBA_Curious New Member

    One thing you haven't told us is why she is curious about online. Does she have a very difficult schedule? Are you all planning to move soon?

    I think local programs of equal quality will always trump online programs UNLESS there's some caveat.

    Just my $0.02 though.
     
  4. Fortunato

    Fortunato Member

    Okay, I'll bite. To be honest, I don't think there is enough information to make a recommendation. What is your wife hoping to accomplish with her degree? What does she do now? Does she want to advance in her current job, make contacts to find a new job, or change to a new field altogether? How constrained is your budget? How old is your wife? If the payback horizon is long enough, you might find it worthwhile to "stretch" into a higher-ranked, more expensive program that you might not otherwise consider.

    Finally, if your wife wants to do her degree in a classroom, why would you consider an online program to be an option?

    My general rule for choosing an MBA program is that the best program for you is the highest ranked program that you can afford and can also get into, subject to personal constraints. What is a personal constraint? It's anything that would rule out a specific school in your eyes, such as: being across the country when you want to do a program in the same state, being online when you want to take classes on campus, the fact that you hate a school's athletic teams :), etc. Note that I said program, not school - while overall school rankings loosely correlate with the b-school's ranking, this isn't always the case: Yale's MBA, for example, is not as highly regarded as its undergrad programs are.

    Best of luck finding a program!

    --Fortunato
     
  5. dlady

    dlady Active Member

    In the business sector school rankings really come into play very rarely, it is access to the alumni and social networks of fellow well placed graduates that bring the real value. Tier 1 of course is better than tier 2, but inside the tiers and outside of geography the utility of the spend is not as important.

    Also, mid-life degree’s reduce a lot of the utility (certainly not all) as a mid-career person has often developed their own networks to leverage, unless of course she is considering a career or industry change. AACSB is of course great..

    I could never imaging being in a position as a mid-career professional to spend $100k on a single degree (but honest to God good for you for being able to afford it)..
     
  6. pugbelly

    pugbelly New Member


    Can I ask where you got your stats? I found 2 MBA rankings by Business Week. One was from 2002 (http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/02/index.html) and the other from 2004 (http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/04/). Both place Arizona State above GWU. (GWU is listed in 2nd tier and GWU in the third tier.)

    The Financial Times (http://media.ft.com/cms/9753d360-a6ee-11db-83e4-0000779e2340.pdf) ranks Arizona State at #57 in the world, above GWU which is listed at #67.

    It is true that GWU is ranked much higher than Arizona State as a university, but not the business school. US NEWS (http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/grad/mba/search) ranks Arizona state at #22. GWU is not ranked.

    To answer some of the other questions that others have asked:

    1) My wife will be 30 this month. She stayed home with our sone for several years so she's really just starting her career.
    2) She would prefer a classroom experience over DL, but wants to go with the school that will open the most doors. If that means DL, so be it.
    3) We agree that local programs of equal quality trump DL, but the local programs of equal quality are Maryland and Georgetown, both of which are far too expensive. The next level down at a local level would be GWU, followed by Loyola, both of which rank well behind Arizona State.
    4) Her employer will be paying for her degree, but I doubt they'll drop $80k-$90k for Maryland or Georgetown. GWU will run about $60k, Arizona State would be about $42k, Loyola $35k.
    5) She works for General Dynamics (Fortune 100 Company) as a Conference Coordinator. She would like to get the MBA with a strong accounting concentration so that she also qualifies to take the Maryland CPA exam. Her ultimate goal is to be a CFO for a small to mid-sized company by the time she is 45. Lofty? Maybe, maybe not, but that's her goal.

    Hope this helps fill in the blanks for those that have asked.

    Pug
     
  7. pugbelly

    pugbelly New Member

    As a follow up, another reason we like the online MBA at Arizona State is that it's the same cirriculum as the campus version, and is taught by the same full-time faculty as the campus version. This is NOT always the case with online and/or part-time MBA programs. So if she's going to consider DL, ASU would be the place.

    Pug
     
  8. She may also want to check out Indiana, ranked #20.

    http://www.kd.iu.edu

    There are only two minor caveats to this program that I've found:

    1) While the majority of professors are from Kelley Bloomington, some are from Indianapolis. The diploma says "Kelley School of Business Bloomington - Indiana"

    2) The program is administered by IUPUI (Indiana University Purdue University Indianapolis) and the transcript says IUPUI as well. However, you DO graduate from the Kelley School of Business.

    A third for your situation might be that there is no Accounting concentration, just a general MBA. She could pursue a dual degree MBA / MS Finance if she wished though.

    I'm taking my final few courses and have been very satisfied with the curriculum, the professors and the students. It's probably worth a look, even as a compare/contrast to ASU.

    Having said all of this, if your wife is starting out in her career there's nothing like sitting in class and meeting people. A DL MBA isn't for everyone, especially if there are new work pressures, putting the kids to bed, etc. It may be too much for her to take on a full course load; I am taking a 50% load and doing the MBA over 4 years because of this. For any business program worth its salt DO NOT underestimate the amount of work to be done!

    Finally, she should also check to see if General Dynamics has any relationship with a local or DL business school. Had I started today, I probably would have done my MBA with a local school (also AACSB) because the tuition was much cheaper and about half the classes were actually given at my work site.
     
  9. DBA_Curious

    DBA_Curious New Member

    Given her career aspirations, would she prefer this program at Arizona State http://sgml.asu.edu/programs/graduate/accountancy_ldrshp/
     
  10. macattack

    macattack New Member

    Sorry Pug, I'm usually good with the links, but I was running late for work.

    1. The recent BusinessWeek rankings are here. Re-reading (when I'm not racing off to work), they are both in a category "US Programs Also Considered For Ranking", 2nd Tier was only 8 schools. Incidently, GW is ranked 51st for Undergrad and ASU 70th.
    2. Financial Times 2008 US Top MBA programs are found here (PDF). GW 40th, ASU 53rd.
    3. Yes, I referenced the University as a whole on my 5th point previously as that can be a good indication of what the general public or hiring manager may think of the school. Yale sounds better than Indiana to the average Joe, but Indiana is ranked higher by BusinessWeek for the FT MBA!

    I think it would be a big mistake to take an MBA online with that many local options, especially if it is her preference to sit in class. There are still many people that have a problem with DL. Visit the BusinessWeek or Chronicle forums to validate my point.

    I would only choose a DL and/or non-local program as a last resort for a part-time MBA, even if its ranked a little higher by some magazine.
     
  11. macattack

    macattack New Member

    ASU is an excellent choice. However, to clarify, the online MBA is not the same curriculum as the campus PT or the campus FT. Probably the biggest difference is the option for a specialization on campus and no such option online. Also, many (most ?) AACSB online MBAs are taught by the same faculty as on campus.

    Again, ASU is an excellent program, one which I considered myself many times.
     
  12. macattack

    macattack New Member

    Sorry for the triple posting, but I wanted to tie my previous post with this quote from you. I think you will find that GWU is comparable to ASU, making it an excellent choice given it's proximity to you.
     
  13. mbaonline

    mbaonline New Member

    For purposes of the CPA exam, Finance classes won't cut it, in most states. If they did, I'd have sat for the exam by now. However, Pug's wife should check the requirements for the state(s) where she wishes to be licensed. This is very important.

    A quick check on Maryland shows that she needs 27 semester hours (18 grad hours) in accounting plus 21 semester hours (14 grad hours) in business related subjects. Here's a quote on the accounting portion alone: "Applicants must have completed one course each in auditing, managerial accounting or cost accounting, U.S. Federal Income Tax; nine semester undergraduate semester hours/12 undergraduate quarter hours in financial accounting; and elective accounting courses."


    http://www.dllr.state.md.us/license/cpa/cpareqact.htm#cirr

    Most MBA degrees do NOT have 18 grad hours in accounting, and unless Mrs. Pug already has some undergrad accounting to fill in, she will need additional classes. What was her undergrad degree? Or she may want to consider a Masters in Accounting instead.

    The other option is that if she goes AACSB, does an MBA and wants to get a MAcc, many AACSB schools will give some partial credit for overlapping classes. But again, it's something to check into now, rather than after the degree is done. And if she doesn't go AACSB for the MBA, she probably won't get the credit and will have to retake the classes.

    Best of luck!
     
  14. Fortunato

    Fortunato Member

    Thanks for answering my questions. I've quoted each of your points and added my responses inline.

    Ouch. I'm going to be brutally honest with you. This is a huge negative on a b-school application. Most upper tier b-schools look very closely at an applicant's work history. The average student in the online program at Arizona State, for example, has 8.5 years of work experience.

    I don't mean to be discouraging, but one of the ways upper-tier schools reach the upper tier is by being selective in who they admit. To overcome a light work history, your wife is going to have to blow the rest of the application out of the water. That means making sure her recommenders can convince the admissions committee that she makes the sun rise in the morning and set each night, that her application essays clearly explain why she's ready to study for an MBA now, and knows how it will accelerate her career, and she needs great undergrad grades and a good GMAT score (hopefully well over ASU's average, which is 600).

    It's an uphill battle, but it can be won - I got into my program despite a less than stellar undergrad record thanks to great recommendations, working very hard on my admissions essays, and a very good GMAT score.

    The ranking of the school isn't the only thing that opens doors. If your wife feels she is more likely to succeed in a traditional program, graduating from a mid-level part-time classroom MBA with a 4.0 GPA will serve her better than finishing a ranked distance MBA with a 3.0 GPA. Plus, if she attends class on campus, she is more likely to be able to get good use of the school's career services office, which can help her land the first post-MBA job. (Many schools actually reserve their career services help for on-campus students only!)

    You'll never know what her employer is willing to pay for if she doesn't ask. Also, your numbers for the Maryland program are off. The Executive MBA is $90K+, but I'm pretty sure your wife would be headed for the part-time MBA, which would clock in at around $65K.

    This is just an aside, but you probably want to know that under most circumstances, tuition benefits over $5,250 a year are considered taxable income by the IRS.

    It's not a bad goal, but if she wants to be an accountant, maybe she should get an accounting degree. Has she considered pursuing a Master of Science in Accounting? Given her career goals and work history, it might be a better fit. As a bonus, MSA programs are generally shorter and cheaper than MBA programs - Maryland's Executive MSA is only $36K.
     
  15. mbaonline

    mbaonline New Member

    Follow-up

    I agree with Fortunato.

    How about this from Macattack earlier this year: Arizona State University Masters of Professional Accounting: http://sgml.asu.edu/online/

    AACSB
    Very few prereqs - designed for non-accounting majors

    "Upon successful completion, program graduates will meet the 150-hour educational requirement to qualify for the Certified Public Accountant (CPA) exam. The program is an excellent career choice for students who DO NOT hold an undergraduate degree in accounting but wish to pursue career advancement in accountancy professions. Mastery of the technical and professional skills that form the core of the MPAc will give you the competitive advantage to accelerate your career advancement and compensation growth."

    "How much does the Masters degree in Accounting graduate program cost?
    The 30-hour Masters degree in Accounting graduate program costs $10,000 plus the base graduate tuition as determined each year by the Arizona Board of Regents. For the 2006/07 academic year, the base graduate resident tuition for 30 semester hours was $13,410. There is no additional charge for books or other course materials."
     
  16. pugbelly

    pugbelly New Member


    She looked at Indiana, but decided against it because the faculty that teach the DL MBA are not identical to the campus version. I think the cirriculum might also be a little different and I believe the residency reuirement might be longer.

    She is checking with General Dynamics. She decided last night to request a meeting with the regional VP, which she should be able to get pretty easily. She's planning to explain to him that she wants to put herself in the best possible poistion for advancement within the company, show him the various schools and degree options, and let him choose. I actually think this is a GREAT idea for a variety of reasons. First, she has to stay with General Dynamics for 2 years following the completion of her degree or she owes the money back, so why not advance her career within the company as much as possible within that time frame? Secondly, it should provide a little insight into what the top execs are looking for in a degree, in a school, and in a program format. Last, I think it shows him that she is ambitious, but also wants to make sure that her goals coincide with the company goals. I'm certain that few, if any, have come to him for this type of direction.

    Pug
     
  17. pugbelly

    pugbelly New Member

    1) I saw that ranking as well, but somewhat disregarded it because it's for unergraduate business schools.
    2) Thanks for that link!
    3) She's leaning more and more toward classroom studies.

    Pug
     
  18. pugbelly

    pugbelly New Member

    No. GWU has a great program locally as well. She wants the MBA because it's broafer than the MS Accountcy, and CFO's that have the MBA make more on average than those that don't. She also wants to keep her options as open as possible.

    Pug
     
  19. pugbelly

    pugbelly New Member


    You are correct. The online ASU MBA consists of the same CORE cirriculum. It does not have the same concentration options. As far as other AACSB online programs being taught by the same FT faculty, no, that has not been my experience. ASU has a comparative chart on its web page that shows the differences between the faculty of its degree program, Indiana's, Penn State's and the University of Florida's. Locally, I know that Frostburg and Baltimore, both AACSB, use adjuncts for for a portion of the programs.
     
  20. pugbelly

    pugbelly New Member

    Agreed. She had 3 years of work history prior to staying home with the baby. While she was home, she became a licensed daycare provider and ran a very successful home business for five years. By the time she applies to grad school next year she will have 18 months of additional work history that she has earned with General Dynamics, including 2 promotions. Will it be enough? Maybe, maybe not...we'll see. One advantage she has is that grad programs also like diversity. Being a women, that gives her an edge. Only about 1/3 of all MBA students are women.

    Again, agreed. Her letters of recommendation will be from the CFO of a management firm that ranks #5 in the region among privately held companies and #62 in the nation in the affordable housing industry, from the Regional VP of General Dynamics (#87 on the Fortune 100 list), and from the Colonel that runs Fort Detrick in Maryland (General Dynamics is the military contractor at this base). None of that guarantees anything, but it should add weight.

    Great points that we have considered. That's probably the biggest reason she's leaning toward classroom studies.

    AT GWU, yes. MUCH more at Georgetown and Maryland.


    Yes, she has considered the MS Accounting. She'd prefer the MBA because it leaves her with more options. The MBA with a CPA should allow her maximum flexibility.

    Thank you for all of your feedback!

    Pug
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 6, 2008

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