I'm thinking about law school...

but I have not taken the LSAT. I'm now laid off (Michigan secondary teacher) and I want make a career change. I have narrowed down my options: salvage some old graduate credits and complete a Master's, begin a totally new master's program geared towards business and/or law, complete a post-baccalaureate certificate in paralegal studies, or bite the bullet and try law school.

I considered becoming a Paralegal. I found three ABA-approved paralegal programs: Oakland University, University of Toledo, and Oakland County Community College. Last Thursday, I applied online to the University of Toledo and I intend to apply in person to the Oakland U and CC programs this week. All three schools are not a local commute for me and that makes me nervous considering our Michigan winters. The easiest commute (less traffic congestion & freeway switches) is actually the one that is the farthest, UoT. They offer two of the beginning courses online which would be helpful.

Also, UofT claims they guarantee admission into their Law School if you complete the program with a min 3.3 GPA and score in the 50th percentile on the LSAT. I believe OU also has a similar agreement with http://www.cooley.edu/Thomas Cooley School of Law. Here's the thing. I have an UGPA of 3.3 and a GGPA of 3.7 and so I'm thinking a decent LSAT score may get me accepted without going the paralegal route.

I'm now suffering from buyer's remorse. Immediately, after I paid my $40 application fee to UofT I had second thoughts. It truly is not a pre-law degree and neither is a Master of Legal Studies. These courses/credits do not transfer into a law school. So, I would rather just go to law school NOW but I don't have a LSAT score and it's too late to apply. If there was a law school that would accept me now without a LSAT then I'd rather do that. I intend to be in school this Fall but I'm not sure which way to go MBA, MLS, Paralegal cert, other.

(sigh)

Any advice?

 

Is there no hope of being rehired to your teaching position? I teach in Alabama and because of our outdated tax code we have an endless cycle of nontenured teachers being laid off and rehired each year. I went through every year until I earned tenure, as did my wife.

 

Take a year to take some law classes such as intro to business law and/or ethics. You can even complete the UF grad certificate in healthcare risk management (had a lot of law students in the class with me).

All the time, prepare for the LSAT's and enter law school next fall. Why take a program that will not help you in law school if that is the end goal?

 

Bamafan, yes there is a possibility that I can be rehired. I was laid off due to program cuts thanks to NCLB, HQT, the new State Math and Science requirements, and our economy. I'm an elective industrial technology teacher with over 11 years experience. I knew this was coming especially when our district eliminated the entire Computer curriculum in all middle schools. I knew I was next and I was running out of time. Painstakingly, I managed to get 10 years vested with the State and secure my Professional Certification. But, I sacrificed my graduate degree by taking an alternative route. However, I did at least get my Professional Certification even though I am now laid off.

Honestly, I don't want to go back because my district has totally gutted my program. I would be forced to do the work of 4 teachers. All three of my former colleauges retired out of frustration. If am called back then I cringe at the thought of doing the work of 4 people.

I really need to transition out if I can. I need to wear another professional hat.

 

I changed careers a couple of years ago, and quite frankly it was the best thing I ever did. I make more money now than I ever have. Of course, I didn't start at that level, but I quickly worked my way up in the company.

I agree with Randell. If law school is truly the path you want to take, spend this time preparing for the LSAT. In the meantime, you could take some courses that you could transfer into a law degree program. Use this time as an opportunity to prepare and get a great LSAT score, and then you'll have more options when it comes to choosing a law school.

 

Randall, that is exactly what I was thinking. Why take a program that will not help you in law school if that is the end goal?

My first plan was to get the paralegal certificate in the meantime. If I went full time, then I could be done in 3 semesters. I would at least have a professional cert in hand. If law school doesn't work out then I could try to find an internship, part-time or full time employment to gain some experience. And, if all else fails then I could resort back to teaching. It probably would be best to get my Master's so I could at least teach on the college level.

That is why I'm stuck. Which way to go.

BTW, UofT does offer an Intro to Law course online and I believe a legal research course online.

(sigh)

 

Thank you all for responding! I am feeling a sense of urgency right now. I need to make a wise and calculated move.

TCord, that is what I would like to do...take some courses that will transfer into a law school, study for the LSATand take the test ASAP. However, it doesn't seem like any of the paralegel or MLS courses will transfer into an actual law school program.

It just seems like there are no alternative routes and no transfer of credit/course options into ABA-law school.

Perhaps, I'm misinformed.

 

Quemoni,

I recently graduated from a B&M law school and just took the bar exam last week. Here's my advice given what I have learned about law school, the legal profession, and the employment market over the last three years.

First, the paralegal certificate is unlikely to help you substantially in law school admissions or for your later employment at a law firm. Although from a lay perspective this might seem a bit contradictory its not. The job functions and academic knowledge of a paralegal vs. a lawyer are quite different. There is some overlap but for the most part they are separate job entities. If I were you and I wanted to become a lawyer I would not expend the effort and financial resources on paralegal training if that is not the career path I ultimately wanted. The paralegal training is not a stepping stone to becoming a lawyer but more like an alternative path in the legal field.

Second, the lsat is by far the most important part of your law school application. You have already finalized your gpa and work experience only goes so far, the lsat is the only substantial part of your application you can control at this point. If you really want to go to law school then spend the next few months studying full time for the lsat. Its a very learnable test and the effort you put into it will be more of a benefit to your application than taking outside courses or graduate work. I don't remember the details but isn't the next lsat in Oct or Dec for a Fall 09 start? If that's the case the time to start prepping is now! Its not that far away. You need to be above 160 and preferably above 170 to get into a top school. That will take a lot of work unless you happen to be naturally inclined in the areas the lsat tests on.

Third, go to the best school you can get into without putting yourself in a difficult financial situation. As much as law school deans and other academics hate to acknowledge the US News rankings they matter a lot in the legal profession. As a rule of thumb it is generally accepted that the top 15 law schools are heavily recruited by the top firms (i.e. high paying) firms. If you want a chance at those 160k plus bonus salaries you need to have one of those schools on your resume or its going in the trash. Its not fair but thats the way it goes. That being said comfortable salaries and decent employment stats can be found throughout the next 50-75 schools listed on the us news. Think 60-100k a year private practice depending on geographic location with 80% employment rates 6 months after graduation. Again this is very generalized advice but I think most people in the legal profession would agree with it. Now here comes the bad news. In my opinion it doesn't make financial sense to go to a school ranked much lower than 75. If you have other reasons for going then by all means consider them but if the lure of a higher salary or job security are what you are looking for don't go lower than 75th. Once you start going lower than that the job prospects tend to get pretty dismal, especially in the current economic marketplace. The average salaries are likely to be in the neighborhood of 35-45k a year with low 6 month post graduation employment rates. Certainly when you factor in lost income for three years and tuition rates that can reach 30 to 40k a year it does not make financial sense to go to most of these schools.

Lastly, you are right, transfer credit is not accepted unless it was obtained during a law degree program at an aba approved school. Which of course means that you would have had to been accepted into law school at the previous school as well. A bit of a catch 22 but then again thats par for the course when it comes to law school.

If you have any questions I'll help out the best I can. Of course my advice is worth as much as you paid for it, which is to say nothing at all.

Nickk

 

(((((Sigh)))))

Thank you Nickk for the wealth of information you provided. It surely does put things into perspective.

(((((Cry)))))

I can not believe the ABA-law schools have such a monopoly with no alternatives. It sort of reminds me of the military (officers vs enlisted). Paralegal, Master of Legal Studes, and JD are all seperate paths. It is very frustrating that there are no cooperation between the individual legal fields. Okay, the ABA is preserving the status quo...yeah I guess that I CAN believe.

I'm not comfortable putting one golden egg into one golden basket. What if I break the darned thing! LOL! That scares me. If I were single and 22 then I probably take the risk. That being said, I prefer to have several contingency plans in place. You never know what may happen in the future. Heck, I may not even like it!

((((Arg!)))

I'd feel better if I had at least two backup plans.

I could take courses that lead to a MLS degree and study for the LSAT. If I am not accepted into a law school by Fall 2009 then I can at least have my Master's practically completed.

OR

I could work on the least expensive post-bacc paralegal cert and study for the LSAT. If all else fails, then at least I would have another professional certification.

If all the above crash and burn then I would be forced to lick my wounds and return to teaching.

 

Hi Quemoni,

I am also in the Detroit (Metro) area, I completed a Paralegal certificate program online with Blackstone Career Institute

www.blackstone.edu


QUOTE: "Payment Options:

1. Payment in Full - $750.00*
2. Payment Plan B - One down payment of $50.00 plus fourteen monthly payments of $50.00 for a total price of $750.00.*

*Total cost of $750.00 includes a $112.50 registration fee.

Monthly Payment Plan:
Pay a low down payment upon enrollment as your first monthly payment and your remaining fees in monthly installments - interest free! The duration depends on the program you select.

Go to our Financial Assistance section to review other financing options including SLM Career Training Loans from SLM Financial.

Although we endeavor to keep prospective students updated on any upcoming tuition changes, fees are subject to change without notice at any time prior to your enrollment. Please contact the school if you have any questions regarding the current program tuition.

Your tuition fee includes:

* All instruction, exam evaluation, and grading of homework assignments
* Access to our state-of-the-art Online Student Center
* Full student services and support during your program, including
unlimited e-mail, fax, and telephone support
* All new, latest edition, textbooks
* Comprehensive and up-to-date study guides prepared by
faculty and reviewed by subject matter experts
* Exam grade reports with references for questions answered incorrectly
* One official school transcript
* An embossed Legal Assistant or Paralegal diploma upon completion of program requirements

...And, depending on the course you take:

* Multimedia CD-ROMs
* Course supplements
* Charts
* Audiotapes and CD's
* Transcription Equipment

The exact materials list for each program is available in the Course Materials section."



The progam at the time was $880 (books, fees and guides where all included) and now is $750 total (books, fees and guides included), the program is non-aba, but it is DETC and RA accredited.

The program is recognized by the US Govt, Military and the Veterans Administration (VA).

The program took me 5 months to complete and I used the program for healthcare risk management/Executive nursing (RN, MBA, Foreign Doctorate and now Paralegal) purposes.

As you know, their are plenty of law office in the Detroit (Metro) area for a paid or non-paid Paralegal internship opportunity. The Balckstone program will save you lots of money and will allow you the flexibility to study for the LSAT, seek law school admissions (THOMAS M. COOLEY LAW SCHOOL - Biggest in State of MI) or to return to teaching on your own terms.

Thomas M. Cooley Law School - http://www.cooley.edu

I hope this helps you in some way.

Regards,

 

What would you do with the Master of Legal Studies if you were not successful in your application to law school?

If you attend law school and graduate, at what type of firm would you like to practise law? Alternatively, do you see yourself teaching law at some point?

Do you have any interest in working as a paralegal? Would employment as a paralegal satisfy your professional interests in the law or would you feel as though it was second prize? Perhaps you could integrate your teaching skills and the skills from paralegal training to teach at a college part-time in addition to working as a paralegal.

With your background in teaching have you given any thought to using those skills, not necessarily the subject matter from school teaching, in an organizational setting such as in the training department of a business? In such a situation a graduate degree or doctorate degree would be beneficial.

I ask these questions to help you decide where you want to be career-wise say 5 years from now.

 

Some thoughts...

I think Sentinel asks some good questions. What is your passion? How would you connect that with a Law degree?

I can see the benefit of taking this time to study for (and acing) the LSAT. But I also see that you don't want to "lose" this year and lose momentum.

If you are interested in Healthcare Risk Management, you could complete the certificate that Randall mentions while studying for the LSAT. This would be beneficial if you want, say, to practice medical malpractice defense or insurance defense.

If it's Human Resource Law, patent law, children's advocacy, environmental law...then look for some graduate-level programs in these subject areas. If it's business law, take a business law grad-level course plus one in ethics.

You're right that almost any class you take will not be applicable towards graduation requirements for law school, as the schools have that area sewn up. But you may give yourself a head start and make yourself more marketable when you're done.

The good thing about having this year is that you can make sure you don't have "buyer's remorse" or make the wrong choice for your future.

Just my $0.02 worth.

 

Wow, you all don't realize how grateful I am for the timely responses!

Jek, thank you for the information on Blackstone. Honestly, I never considered a non-ABA paralegal program. I was advised by several people to ONLY enter an ABA-approved program esp. if I wanted to bargain for the highest entry level salary possible. They could be wrong. Secretly, I would love to be done in 6 months for under $1000.

Another thing that worries me is the pay. I complained about my teacher's pay but geeeeeeeesssssssh. So, I think I really need to be a corporate paralegal with some amazing specializations.

That or just get a MBA :-/

 

Sentinel & Mbaonline, I was trying to hide my indecisiveness and not reveal my insecurities. I have NO IDEA what I want to do. There! I said it!

(chuckle)

One of my other passions is researching and investigations esp. injustices, scandals or white collar crime. I despise white collar criminals. But, I do not want to be a cop.

I DO NOT want to be a legal secretary. I DO NOT want to end up being a filing clerk. That is what makes me nervous about the paralegal field because it seems they get NO RESPECT. I really became apprehensive when I visited a paralegal forum. Most seemed very disgruntled because they were mistreated in the workplace. I guess in that case I would view being a paralegal as a "second-prize". Thus, my wanting to try law school.

However, I figured a paralegal background would assist me transitioning out of teaching into the field of business/law. It may also help me personally especially with contracts. I would expect to be treated like a newbie for the first 3 years because that comes with the territory. But, after I prove myself I would expect to be respected and compensated. I hear corporate paralegals are treated better than when working in law firms.

The US being a capitalistic society and all--Business, Industry and Commerce makes the world go around. So, I was thinking corporate/contract law more so than criminal law.

Yes, I have thought about transitioning into Corporate Training but I fear being stuck in "Education". Teaching is all I know and the older I get I'm losing confidence in "trying new things".

So, since I am laid off. I figure this is the perfect time to go out on a limb. If I hate it then I know I can always teach.

"Those that can't do-- teach."

I really don't want that to be true for me.

I want to be successful in something else too!

 

You do not necessarily have to wait until next fall. There are ABA law schools which have first year intake during the Spring and Summer. If you would like, reply and I will provide a list of schools.

Also, that you can only transfer law school credits from an ABA school is not always true. There are some ABA schools that will accept credits from California bar accredited schools. But, this is a murky area, and I do not know much about it.

 

Quemoni,

Based on your responses and this info from Vincey, I would put every effort into the LSAT and take it as soon as you are ready (October?). If you don't get into a law school for spring admission, take some grad-level business classes and/or enroll in an MBA program. An MBA plus law degree is a great combo for corporate law. It would also open teaching opportunities at the college level.

But another thought occured to me...have you talked to enough lawyers to know that you'll like practicing law? There are some unemployed lawyers who just don't "fit" and/or dislike law. Maybe you could do an internship?

 

Vincey37, if there was a local ABA school I could dive into right now. I would. I guess I still have to pass the LSAT first. But, if I wouldn't have to wait until Fall 2009 that would be even better.

Oye! Now, I remember why the non-lawyer options were on the top of my list. My husband, full-time=no income and our house. Law school would affect all of them and turn our world upside down.

Vincey, I forgot location restricts my options. I can check locally but if you have that list at the tip of your fingertips then please post it anyway.

 

Having a quick look at the list the only option for a non fall intake in your area is going to be Cooley, with start dates in both spring and summer.

Their acceptance rate is 73.8%, and with a 3.3GPA you'll be at the 75th percentile. Honestly if you score so poorly on the LSAT that you can't get into Cooley with a 3.3 you're just not cut out to be a lawyer. So I wouldn't worry about getting guaranteed admission.

Their peer assessment rating is 1.4/5, and the rating by lawyers and judges is 1.9/5. Not such a great reputation. 73.3% of graduates are employed nine months after graduation. The median private sector salary is $51,000, public sector $43,000.

 

You mention being interested in research and fighting white collar crime. Do you know that most people who catch white collar criminals in the act are accountants? I used to work as a reporter, and I covered the court proceedings of Bernie Ebbers, who was the CEO of WorldCom...one of the biggest financial collapses and white collar crimes in U.S. history, other than Enron. I also covered embezzlement cases involving public officials. In each case, accountants gave the key testimony. Just thought I would throw that out there.

My point is, you don't necessarily have to be an attorney or a paralegal to work in a field that seems has really captured your interest. You could get a degree in criminal justice and work as a civilian employee at a law enforcement agency. Or, you could work as an insurance claims investigator (busting people trying to scam the insurance company). You could get an accounting degree and work in the field of forensic accounting, which is primarily an investigative field involving financial crimes.

Basically, there is usually more than one avenue to pursue something which will pay you well and satisfy your career interests. Being a lawyer can be very lucrative, but there are many, many lawyers who don't make much money at all, particularly private practice lawyers and public defenders. My brother-in-law is an attorney for a firm located in Manhattan, NY. He works mainly in the fields of real estate law and personal injury. He does OK, but he's not filthy rich by any stretch of the imagination. If you are looking to bust white collar criminals, that means you would be working for either county, state or federal government. Again, attorneys working for the government do OK, but they are not millionaires, either.

 

Those salaries are so sad. Is that a good representation for all lawyers coming out of school?