Problems with Charles Sturt U admissions

Hi gang -- here's the story --

A month ago I received written notification from the education department sub-dean that I could pursue a PhD in Education -- research -- with NO on-campus residencies. In fact I would not have to travel to Australia for any reason whatsoever. This was confirmed in a follow-up correspondence just before I plunked down admission and transcript $$$.

I arranged for a regional associate supervisor in the US and we had already begun work on the dissertation proposal.

Early last week I received notification from the Dean of the Education dept saying that this was all in error -- that they do not in fact offer a PhD in education and that the only degree available was EdD and that required three residencies and is taught courses plus dissertation.

I wrote back saying thanks but no thanks.

Then this week, I get notification that they are holding my admissions info because the educ dept is "seriously considering" very soon adding the research PhD option.

BTW the website, handbook and catalog ALL state the the research doctorate IS available in Education.

What gives here? Any ideas? Should I wait around to see what's going on or go ahead and start elsewhere? And further -- if they are so dang confused on whether the degree is even available, then what happens two years into the research doctorate when they change their minds about required residencies??

Advice requested -- and thanks much in advance.
Sunnie

 

My opinion -- go find another program. These people don't seem to know what they are doing.

Mike Goldberg

 

South of the equator, things swirl around in the opposite direction.

What an annoying, but by no means unique situation. That sub-dean is probably smarting from a trip to the woodshed. But if there is a prospect of what you want, (a) probably worth a short wait, and (b) definitely worth getting some kind of agreement, signed by the dean, confirming whatever arrangement is offered. I can tell stories. I will tell two.

One was the student who was admitted to a "Master's degree program in architecture," and somehow did not know, until completing it, that the degree was M.A. in Architecture, when he wanted (indeed needed) an M.Arch.

Two was the irate phone call from a professor at the U of Iowa castigating me for writing that the U of Iowa had distance Bachelor's degrees. An on-campus student had come to him, and he made sure that student understood that there were no such programs. I gave this bloke the phone number for the University of Iowa's 100% non-resident Bachelor's program, and invited him to call it. (He did have the good graces to phone back later and say, 'Well I'll be damned...")

 

I don't agree - they DO know exactly what they are doing. They were originally a group of Colleges of Advanced education (degree granting Polys in UK parlance) that attained independent university status in the 1980's. They are now no longer a Government University, and one of the senior executives of their Melbourne operation (Taylots) advises me thatthey are owned by the owners of the large Study Group International (Times of London??) and are quickly becoming that groups global virtual university.

I tend to agree with John bear's opinion. They run an excellent operation and you won't be the onle graduate of theirs in US.

On the other hand if you are not happy, go somewjere else.

peter French

 

I stand by my statement. It is my firm opinion that people who know what they're doing don't do what they did.

Mike Goldberg

 

Sunnie --

What an annoying situation. As far as I'm concerned, there are good reasons to ditch the school or stay with it; it all depends on how willing you are to keep dealing with these folks.

I briefly considered Sturt myself for a Ph.D. in professional and applied ethics, and the process seemed fairly straightforward and the folks at the school receptive, FWIW. The whole business here strikes me as grossly unusual, and is almost certainly not par from the course for Sturt.

If you do end up going with a different school (and, again, I think you would be entirely justified in doing so), may I suggest Edith Cowan University or the University of Southern Queensland. Both have expressed a willingness to negotiate nonresident external doctorates.

Good luck.


Cheers,

------------------
Tom Head
www.tomhead.net

co-author, Bears' Guide to the Best Education Degrees by Distance Learning (Ten Speed Press)
co-author, Get Your IT Degree and Get Ahead (Osborne/McGraw-Hill)

 

Well in this case, I know the school, several of its academics, and its goals.

If you read John Bears message again, you will find that this is not uncommon, and from other messages has happened frequently elsewhere.

So I stand by my statement - stalemate!

Let the candidate decide.

Peter French

 

Okay so if this happens everywhere then what's a person to do? How many people do not complete doctorates because some dean decides at the last minute that non-residency is unacceptable? All universities jerk around doctoral students to some extent or another -- but in a case where extensive travel may later be required then that would, in effect, shut down the degree process totally would it not?

 

OK it pisses you off which is understandable.

You can tell them to shove their university where the sun can never shine, or swap your stopwatch for a 5 years diary, which these blokes operate with.

They are a good place but if it upsets you, follow Tom's advice. They are all getting ready to go on leave for a few months plus the group who will be taking sabbaticals ... then you get madder when they write and say '...I am sorry but i am out of my office for the 185 days, but i will reply to you on my return...'

Sympathetically

Peter French

 

Yeah I'm ticked that they can't get their ducks in a row about whether or not they will "allow" the research phd in education. IF they finally say ok to that -- and agree in writing that no travel or residency involved, then I'm good to go.

But what will make me mad is if, once I finish the dissertation, they tell me - oh yeah you have to come here for this or that in order to officially get the degree. That will make me mad and THAT is what I need to know if I'm taking a serious chance on.

I don't care if supervisors or advisors go on sabbatical and basically just leave me to my own devices. In fact, I would prefer that. I have an OUTSTANDING associate supervisor in the US who is willing to work with me throughout the duration of the dissertation (and is, in fact, determined that I will finish in two years max). So I'm perfectly happy if ANY university will just let me enroll, then leave me alone to do the dissertation, and then confer the degree.

So simple, why do they have to make it such a big deal?

 

Have you mentioned the 2 years time frame to them? Many would not agree to that.

Often the attendance requirements relate to publicly defending at the end of year 1 when you have your proposal and the first 2 chapters done.

You really expect to get 100,000 words of high independent research completed in 2 years? How are you going to handle the periods where you don't get any feedback for 4-6+ weeks at a time? ...or when the senior supervisor lets the product sit on his desk for 3 months before even opening it, and then recommends a raft of changes?

There is a hell of a big differnce between our 2 cultures, and here the PhD animal is very leisurely, let me assure you. Sometimes the harder you push them the slower they become. They'll push you for work, then let it sit and gather dust .... !

Good luck

Peter French

 

In my experiences, RA or GAAP doctoral programs seem to fall into two categories (of course there are exceptions);

1) True distance or non-traditional schools (Union, Capella, Walden, etc.) are very accomadating. Phone calls are returned quickly, questions promptly answered. However, they tend to charge tutition by the semester/quarter regardless of how many credits you take on, so they are very expensive. They also tend to take a "hard sell" approach...I'm still getting e-sales pitches from schools I looked at over a year ago.

2) Brick & mortar schools that offer non-traditional doctoral programs. They seem to think that applying to their programs is a privilege for which you should feel honored. They're not too keen on making exceptions, and are generally in no hurry to respond to any concerns or questions you might have. It's almost like being jerked around is a rite of passage.

Unfortunately, if you want to go the RA/GAAP route, you have to jump through the hoops that are placed in front of you.


Bruce

 

Yes I expect to write 100K-word dissertation in two years. I have already completed the literature review and am outlining the research methodology now.

I was also told that by admissions that two years is the minimum and quite an acceptable time frame. Of course they may change their minds about THAT also.

More importantly, my regional supervisor will not let ANYTHING sit on his desk -- in fact he is already instructing me in writing the proposal -- and this is before I've been formally accepted anywhere.

At the rate I'm going, the whole dang thing might be finished before I ever start a program LOL

I'm waiting to hear from a couple of schools in addition to CSU. Unfortunately the others are not research degrees *sigh* But we do what we must. If I have to, I'll just hold my tongue and suffer through the coursework. We'll see how it goes.

 

It is called hurry-and-wait.

Ike

 

I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall seeing a research PhD in Education (with many different specialties available) offered by the University of New England in Australia. You've probably already looked at them, but if not check out www.une.edu.au . From the information I could gather (no guarantee of the accuracy) UNE seems to be more traditional and established than CSU, and has been offering distance education for a very long time. Since the program is well established you should be able to get definitive answers. Their web site has a lot of information, but it can be difficult to navigate at first. There is a section dedicated to the research PhD at http://rs-nt-10.une.edu.au/Home/V_2_1/phd.html , and links to the three schools of education can be found at http://www.une.edu.au/faculties/faculty.htm .

 

UNE is my alma mater - 2 masters and a third one (honours) coming up

They do have a PhD in education but:

1. You'll have to start from scratch with them.

2. You'll have to be on campus for 58 days throughout the PhD period - 1 lot or split up.

3. They are very tough and very thorough and have an excellent graduate education school.

Fancy 2 months out here? The accommodation is good - a special hall of residence for senior research students.

Peter French
MEd MAcc (UNE)
Australia

 

I sincerely appreciate all the suggestions. And I am or have looked into every single one -- more than once LOL

So now I'm back to base one -- searching for a program -- and in the meantime, already writing the dissertation proposal

I'll let ya know if any decisions are made --
thanks again for all your help.