Dl Rigor

I am seeking comments from the board:

I have become concerned recently regarding the utility of my DL degree in the future. I am concerned about the lack of rigor of many programs. It is my belief that DL degree programs will become increasingly under the microscope of "outsiders", that is most of the population.

I see college level courses being tested out with FEMA courses over the weekend and entire masters level courses completed in 1 week with open book exams and such. How do we plan to overcome objections to such apparent lack of rigor? I don't want my future MBA to be shrugged off as a glorified mill degree (not that they are - I am speaking from a possible outsiders prospective).

Please talk to me and help alleviate my concern.

P.S. I'm not a troll, I have been around here for a while. Just speaking out about my concern. Sorry if I offend.

 

I think you are making a VERY broad generalization here. There are really only a couple of programs out there that fall into this category. I think that 99% of the DL population will never have to defend the rigor of their programs. The remaining 1% will have to handle it on a case by case basis. If it was a good, solid program, the student should be able to defend it.

Pug

 

There is a significant lack of correlation between the content/rigor of programs and the perception of their value/quality/utility. Don't conflate these two concepts.

 

Pug,

I see what your saying, my examples could be taken as being on the extreme side. But there are still A LOT of programs that just don't cut it, in my view. A quick and easy degree is not an unusual request on this board.

As far as testing goes, I understand testing out with a rigorous exam, such as Edinburgh Business School or the University of London. I am studying ma A** off for the CPA exam. I am studying via DL. I watch video from CDs, study from my book and use simulated exam software to practice. My extreme efforts will be rewarded with licensure upon the completion of the exam. If I were able to bring along my study books to the exam, I don't think folks would hold CPAs in such high regard (that assumes they do now ).

The Standardized CPA exam puts everyone on the same playing field. This just doesn't happen with degree programs. A degree from say, Ellis college or Cal Coast is not going to match up with a degree from my little state school in town as far a rigor goes. I speak from experience at my local college and I am comparing to these other schools based on comments by current students. These are not extreme examples. Again, sorry if I offend current students at these schools, I am just trying to use examples to explain my concerns.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we, as DL students, should make every effort to support programs that possess obvious rigor and will support a positive view with the rest of the population.

Thank you in advance.

 

Thanks Rich,

However I disagree, I do see a correlation. If a program is not rigorous or have sufficient content, the perception of value/quality/utility should diminish accordingly.

 

Rigor is going to vary in DL programs, but it will also vary in traditional classrooms. Even in state schools (as Steve likes to promote) rigor is going to vary. There have always been tough programs and soft programs, and there always will be.

Yes, I believe a degree program should be challenging. That said, I think it's important to acknowledge that not everyone seeks a degree for the same reasons. Some want a degree because they are interested in forming a foundation for a career. Others want a degree for personal enrichment...nothing more than the experience and joy of learning something new. Others, mostly experienced professionals, have little or no desire to go back to school. Instead, a degree is simply the ONLY way he/she will be eligible for promotions. Many companies require applicants to have a BA or MBA to even be considered for a job, ignoring the possibility that the person without a degree might just be the better candidate in some cases.

The "system" is flawed, and many DL learners have no choice but to make the best of a broken system.

Pug

 

Thanks Steve,

My point is that the employers that are in the dark may not be for long. Intel recently decided to only reimburse for AACSB degrees. Others will surely follow. It is inevitable that more employers will wise up and question bogus degrees (not to imply that NA degrees are bogus – I am speaking on a case by case).

 

Open book examinations are not necessarily soft options. I have not had any open book questions in academic examinations, but I have had them in the organisational setting.

Generally, I found that the question was a complicated scenario that required an indepth analysis and argument using a wide range of information. In short, if you did not understand the material, the open book was of little use. The analysis of the facts and the application of knowledge are the key issues. Quoted information to justify a position had to be "spot on" because of the allowed access to material.

After that, to be honest, I preferred closed book examinations because the bar was not raised as high. I do agree that an institution can cheapen its quality of education by being "easy", but open book examinations have to be measured against the questions asked. Shortened examination time frames and complicated scenarios can be very, very testing, even if you have an "open book".

In a court trial, for example, when the other advocate advances an argument on a point, you had better know the case! You may refer to the case notes to support your argument, but there will be no time to read all the material through to determine your response. Perhaps, this is a real life example of an open book examination type I am referring to.

Each institution, in the longer term, establishes its reputation by the quality and success of its graduates. Mode of testing knowledge should be professionally justified, but institutions that use different methodologies should not be written off too easily.

 

In a rational world, acceptance would happen knowledgeable, and often on a case by case basis. But there is a lot of irrationality and lack of knowledge out there, among the gatekeepers -- witness Rich's doctoral research among HR professionals.

During the 8 years I was involved in marketing the Edinburgh Business School MBA, we went through well over 1,000 corporate acceptance processes, and were ultimately more than 98% successful. Indeed, with one exception, even the rejections were because of a policy against non-US institutions, not Edinburgh specifically.

However, significantly, a fair number (roughly 15%, I think) of those acceptances required additional effort on the part of the student, or me, to help the HR people make a positive decision, after an initial uncertainty or rejection.

 

macattack,

I don't know how many people I've met that believe schools like Phoenix or Cal Coast are unaccredited. They then project this belief onto all DL degrees, unaware there are some very reputable institutions participating in DL. These people do not think there is a difference between a RA for profit and a degree mill!

Because of this, the reputation and utility is of obviously DL degrees (i.e. not from a school that has a traditional program) is already significantly diminished, to the point of uselessness in some companies.

I think as people become more educated about DL, and realize there is a minimum standard of quality for accredited DL degrees, acceptability will actually improve. I agree that the "microscope" will probably reveal a lack of rigor in Cal Coast or Phoenix when compared to State U, but that is better than believing they are degree mills.

By the way, what review program are you using for the CPA? I'm currently working on the Becker course, and I think it's excellent. Thanks DeVry!

 

DL is growing and there are lots of graduates out there. We won't be alone.

My own speculation is that a two-track system will emerge, DL being accepted for generic 'check-off-the-box' applications while on-campus programs that offer the full educational experience (including labs and such) will be preferred in more competitive situations.

Sometimes DL is its own worst enemy. I started getting cynical after reading posts on this board about quickie instant BAs and students bragging about amassing big blocks of 'testing out' credit in subjects that they'd never even studied.

The whole DL dynamic is towards convenience. That's how DL programs compete for students. DL's for people who don't want to move to a campus and aren't willing to devote full-time to their studies. They nevertheless have a tremendous sense of entitlement and assume that they should be able to complete their work more quickly than on-campus students, despite putting less labor into it. It's DL, after all.

I think that your concerns are well founded and not easily dismissed.

The only thing that I can say to help is that most of the public won't be familiar with whatever quickie DL shortcuts are happening out there. They'll just respond to the degree title, assuming that degrees mean degrees.

Or they would, if it wasn't for the degree-mills. The public is becoming increasingly aware of phony universities and that's being associated with online education in general. Comedians are already getting laughs with the phrase 'internet degree'. People don't understand the subtleties of university accreditation, but they are very sensitive to online scams and con-men. Their e-mail reminds them every day.

There's a cloud forming over DL and it's growing darker by the day.

 

I agree that these are good points. The funny thing is that in B&M courses open book exams are often feared as leading to much more difficult tests that will take hours to complete. I just finished a research exam that I would still be writing if it were open book.

DL degrees by state schools and well known B&M who can give assurance that the coursework and requirements are identical to the B&M version will always do well. Repeating this mantra-like to any detractors might be needed, but there is little substantive argument against this kind of DL. In an ideal world they would have the same faculty too, but this is harder to achieve.

 

DL degrees

I am concerned about the acceptability of DL degrees as well. I am near the end of my double major in Biology and Psychology thrpough Excelsior College, and have gone to a lot of trouble to include rigorous coursework with full laboratory experiences such as Organic Chemistry I and II via Athabasca University. Yes, the labs were onsite and cost me in airfare and hotels... and I still finding myself having to prepare for an inordinate number of standardized tests to satisfy not all that great brick and mortar graduate schools that I do, indeed, have a decent background in basic chemistry and physics as well as biology. But, if I do well on the exams, admissions says I will be fine. For those studying for CPA exams, something similiar is likely, as in pass the exam, your coursework will be seen as having been sufficient. I don't know what the utility of a degree that cannot be backed up by exam might be, however, if distance continues to be conflated with degree mill in the popular press.

 

Elizabeth (Sindaena), you'll just have to get used to suffering fools gladly... Ask anyone who challenges your credential to explain where they read "that" about online degrees or Excelsior. If anyone judges you unfairly, know that they've done you a favor by expressing their ignorance up front; who wants to work for ignorant people? That would be very frustrating in the long run, wouldn't it?

Dave

 

I have never worried about the utility of my DL Degree from Capella. My end goal with my degree is to maintain my teaching position or to have the option to teach at a four year college.

While there will be some people who will look down at an online doctoral degree, to be quite honest I wouldn't want to work for those people who are so short sighted. Ultimately, my admission to "the club" will be determined largely on my ability to publish. If I can publish, then to a large extent where my doctoral degree comes from doesn't matter.

To date, I have presented papers at two conferences, led an forum panel at a conference, and have submitted a paper for publication in a peer-reviewed journal. Not too bad for someone who isn't ABD (but soon .

I wax positive about the future of DL - but there comes some responsibility from the DL community to smoke out the degree mills, and for those of us in graduate programs - to make the effort to present and publish our work. The success of DL will come through the accomplishments of the grads of the programs.

Shawn

 

I'm using Becker too and the results are worth the cost. Those guys are funny. I like how Peter Olinto says "shut up stupid, get back to teaching" after telling us one of his silly stories, like tackling P-Ditty in high school football.

Good luck on the exams! 2 down, 2 to go for me.

 

My readings indicate that when "mail order" schools were a new idea - people said it'd never catch on and that the idea would die. Then there were "radio classes" and later educational TV courses and people said "it's not the same, it will never catch on".

Then there came the internet and the rapid growth of DL in even the mightiest of B&Ms (and of course the profit motive from some) - and people said "it's just a fad, it'll never catch on..."

And, no matter which vehicle delivered the DL, some people said "it sucks, it's not the same, it'll never be accepted" while at the same time it grew and grew and grew and grew more.

Not just vocational schools and colleges either. Uncle Sam started using DL in a big way (FEMA EMI, NFA, USAIPD, USDA grad) and business started saying "look, we can achieve the same goal and significant savings..."

I predict that in 10 years there will be even more DL programs delivered in ways we can't even imagine yet. And even then "they" will say it's not the same and will never catch on.

IMHO - it's a really small segment now that thinks an in-the-seat BA from Podunk State is different from a DL BA from Podunk State. In very many cases, there's no longer such a thing as a 100% in-the-seat degree. DL is a recognized and heavily used mode of instruction even in the "in-the-seat" classroom.

 

Yeah, I like Tim Gearty too. I thought he was kinda creepy at first, but I've warmed up to it.

"then take the drugs out of both pockets"
"......"

Thanks and congrats on passing those parts!

 

I did an informal survey with three different employers whom I had worked for in the past. All three work for different companies. My question was, "Would you make a distinction between a candidate that had a DL degree as opposed to a butt-in-class degree." Two of the three said they wouldn't care as long as the degree was accredited. Anyone had a similar experience?

Having just enrolled in an online MBA program, I can say that the rigor is there and I am expecting it to increase quite a bit. DL, in my experience, is not an experience that allows one to "take it easy." Indeed, I am spending at least 3-4 hours per day (every day) doing coursework.