DBA vs. PhD and more...

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Smothermon, Aug 28, 2006.

Loading...
  1. Smothermon

    Smothermon New Member

    I'm in the early decision making process of furthering my education. I currently have BA and MBA. (1) I don't fully understand the difference between a PhD and DBA in Organizational Leadership from NCU (or anywhere else)? (2) My goal is to teach at an AACSB accredited university. I hear I won't make tenure with an online degree. What are the implications of not getting tenure? Any guidance is greatly appreciated.
     
  2. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    If your goal is to teach at an AACSB accredited university, you must attend an AACSB accredited university. NCU isn't one, and I don't think it's possible to get an AACSB accredited doctorate by distance learning.

    Within that restriction, I don't think that DBA/PhD makes a difference.

    -=Steve=-
     
  3. Scott Henley

    Scott Henley New Member

    The difference between a PhD and DBA depends on the school offering the degree. Harvard offers both. The DBA is often regarded as more "applied" than the PhD, however, this is not a definite rule. Some DBA's and PhD's will require coursework and some won't. This usually depends on master's-level preparation. Either DBA or PhD, both can lead to tenure.

    However, if you plan to teach at an AACSB-accredited business school, you'll generally need an AACSB-accredited PhD or DBA. I am not aware of any North American DL doctoral programs that are AACSB-accredited. There are a few "external research" European doctoral programs that are AACSB-accredited (Aston, Henley, Grenoble, Manchester).

    I would stay away from Touro, NCU, Capella, Walden and the rest if you are looking for tenure. Get a doctorate from a reputable B&M school that offers external research options.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 28, 2006
  4. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member


    I wouldn`t bother with a PhD from NCU if you want to teach at a AACSB accredited school.
    I know several PhDs from AACSB accredited schools that are having a hard time getting tenure tracks so the online PhD from a non AACSB accredited school would be almost impossible to sell for tenure tracks unless you are a business guru.

    Your best bet would be to get an accredited (AACSB) PhD or DBA from one of the foreign schools.

    Most of the foreign schools are not fully online and some residencies are required.

    If a non AACSB accredited school is all you can afford, at least try one of the more ¨"tested" schools like Nova or Argosy that have many graduates working as tenure faculty in many schools in the US.
     
  5. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    From the NCU perspective, the DBA has less requirements than the PhD in terms of coursework as the DBA does not require statistics and also some less requirements for the dissertation. So in few words, you might see that the DBA from the NCU perspective is nothing more than a PhD "light".

    On the other hand, other schools see the DBA as the natural transition from the MBA as the PhD is considered more theoretical and normally requires a research master`s rather than an MBA for admission. So in few words, some schools would only offer you admission to a DBA if you have an MBA or ask you to complete a research master`s before being admitted to the PhD.
     
  6. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Re: Re: DBA vs. PhD and more...

    I agree, more than the degree name (DBA or PhD), is the reputation and accreditation of the school that has more weight.

    An AACSB accredited DBA would be preferred against a non AACSB accredited PhD. A Harvard DBA would be preferred against a Colorado State PhD.

    However, if you are going to stay with NCU, I would think that a PhD from NCU would be preferred than a DBA from NCU as the DBA seems to be the light version of the PhD.
     
  7. AGS

    AGS New Member

    Re: Re: Re: DBA vs. PhD and more...

    maybe that would depend on where you would use the PhD ...

    there are some CEOs who have PhDs from non-ivy colleges and yet they maintain high positions of responsibility ...
     
  8. edowave

    edowave Active Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: DBA vs. PhD and more...

    But they weren't handed the CEO position because they had a PhD. They either were already one, pretty close to it, or started their own company.

    If CEO is your goal, don't do a doctorate.
     
  9. Smothermon

    Smothermon New Member

    AACSB not an option...

    From what I understand, there are no AACSB accredited online universities. It's not a mater of money, it's a matter of time and flexibility. UK won't allow part time PhD students and if I were a part time student, it would take 6 or more years to finish my degree and secure a teaching position.

    I can do without tenure unless there are implications I don't know about (some help here would be appreciated).

    The question is, will the University of Kentucky or Eastern Kentucky University accept me as an Assistant Professor of Business if I receive my PhD (or DBA) from an online non-AACSB accredited university?
     
  10. edowave

    edowave Active Member

    You will be out of a job in about 3 years, or you will be kept only as an instructor, on a year by year basis with no benefits, mostly likely having to teach at multiple universities just to get by.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 28, 2006
  11. edowave

    edowave Active Member

  12. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    (1) The original distinction that was supposed to exist between the PhD and the DBA was that the PhD was supposed to have a more theoretical research oriented dissertation and the DBA was supposed to have a more practical and applied problem oriented dissertation. That distinction, however, seems to be blurring nowadays.

    (2) If you want to teach at an AACSB university, you need an AACSB doctorate. It's not necessarily that you won't make tenure with an online degree, but it will make it more difficult for you; online doctoral programs are a relatively new phenomenon and the department chairs and other decision-makers will likely be old geezers who went through grad school knowing only the bricks & mortar, give-up-any-hope-of-having-a-life-for-the-next-seven-years approach to doctoral studies. That said, wherever you do your doctoral studies, establishing a strong publishing record can help overcome the problem of having a less prestigious doctorate. The implication of not getting tenure is this: you have to go away and find a new professorship.
     
  13. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: DBA vs. PhD and more...

    Are you saying that none of the PhD/CEO types went the route of
    getting the PhD first, then taking that first job as businessperson and corporate PhD, then climbing the corporate ladder to CEO?
     
  14. edowave

    edowave Active Member

    Pretty much. If there are any out there (I have yet to find any), then they are the exception, not the rule.
     
  15. Smothermon

    Smothermon New Member

    So what if we look less at the limitated of DL and more at the "whole package"?

    By the time I'm done with a DL PhD or DBA, I'll have 12 years of corporate experience, several at the VP level. I was part of the start up team of two hugely successful corporations. I'm the member of only a couple of small organizations, but I can get into the right organizations, present, write, perhaps hold offices.

    Does family count? Does the military serviceof my husband (deploymetns, etc) count for anything? After all, that's the reason I can't attend a B&M university. I guess I'm wondering if they look at me as a whole person when deciding whether to tenure me (or anyone else)?

    If NCU is out, Argosy and Nova have grads teaching at AACSB schools on tenure or tenture track? That looks like a possibility for me IF the "whole package" counts for anything.
     
  16. Scott Henley

    Scott Henley New Member

    Re: AACSB not an option...

    Many universities in the UK will allow part-time PhD students.

    For example, you can pursue an external part-time DBA or PhD at Aston University. Aston Business School is a top-ranked UK school with an international reputation and they are AACSB, EQUIS and AMBA accredited. However, they do require residency. I think it's 1 month/year for the length of the program, but don't quote me on that.

    Manchester Business School, Henley Management College, Grenoble Graduate School of Business / University of Newcastle also offers a similar programs. The key to these programs is the ability to meet residency. I don't think you can be AACSB-accredited unless there is a residency component.

    Most of these programs can be completed in 4-6 years, depending on how much YOU put in to it.

    Not to sound elitist, but most B&M business schools frown upon "online" PhD or DBA programs, especially those not accredited by AACSB.

    To quote an example... I was chatting with some fellow professors a couple of days ago that I was just introduced to and they asked me about my area of research and where I got my doctorate. I told them that I do not have my doctorate yet, am M.Phil./ABD and hope to get my doctorate in the next 12 - 18 months. Naturally, the conversation developed into the question of where I am studying for my doctorate....

    .... I told them that I was pursuing my doctorate from the University of ______ in the UK. Their next question was about residency (i.e. how often do I go there).... When I told them about 1 month/year, their acceptance was evident. I presented my doctorate as an external research program. Had I mentioned "online" or "DL" their reception would have been less welcoming.

    Unfortunately this is the Catch 22 in academia. Good schools want good professors with good traditional doctorates to conduct good research and good teaching. There is little incentive to break the cycle since the talent pool for traiditional DBA's and PhD's is extensive. If there was a shortage of PhD's, they make look to "online" or "DL" graduates. It will be very hard to break this cylce.

    My recommendation is to "bite the bullet" and try to get into a traditional B&M school that offers part-time/external research options that is AACSB-accredited. It might take 4-6 years, but it will be worth it in the long run. You'll meet people and make contacts during the residencies and have a diploma that carries a lot of weight in the academic world.

    Good luck!
     
  17. Smothermon

    Smothermon New Member

    Sorry, I should have been more clear. When I wrote "UK" I was referring to the University of Kentucky.
     
  18. foobar

    foobar Member

    It is highly unlikely that a new grad from any non-traditional doctoral program will get past the initial review of vitas for a tenure-track position at an AACSB institution. I have seen exceptions made. Pollitical hires at public universities, or hiring the retiring CEO of a major local corporation that has a non-traditional doctorate. I've also seen long-term adjuncts with non-traditional degrees get hired. In these cases, they have developed a significant research record through co-authorships with other faculty members.

    There is a perception, deserved or not that non-traditional programs are of lower quality than traditional doctoral programs.
    I won't speak to that, but I will say that online Ph.D. programs are quite different animals.

    From my perspective, a major component of an accredited B&M business doctorate is the process through which doctoral students are socialized to the professoriate. In fact, academics alone will not get someone through the traditional doctoral program. The grading process is highly subjective - one too many annoyed, skeptical or po'ed professors will result in flunked comps, a failure to form a dissertation committee, or a failed final defense. Right or wrong, the faculty view themselves as protecting the academy.

    There is also the question of research. In my doctoral program (AACSB-accredited) we had bi-monthly research workshops where we would spend hours with major scholars in my discipline. We were able to ask these scholars the kinds of questions about research and expectations that one could not get from attending conferences. The daily interaction with faculty and doctoral students strongly enhanced the emphasis on research and helped to understand how the research game is played.

    Finally, the liberal arts faculty at most institutions, including mine, complain bitterly about the salaries that business faculty receive relative to their own. I always point out that the differential in salaries existed long before they chose to obtain a doctorate in their relatively low-paying discipline.

    Likewise, AACSB institutions have long been reluctant to hire faculty with non-traditional doctorates. One choosing a non-traditional program is in no position to later complain that they cannot get hired at an AACSB-accredited school.
     
  19. Tim D

    Tim D Member

    Jack Welch, Ph D. CEO General Electric(retired). Jack got his Ph D. in Chemical Engineering and then went to work for GE in Pittsfield and worked his way to CEO.
     
  20. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    Re: Re: DBA vs. PhD and more...

    I'd like disagree with this statement, for a couple of reasons:

    1. I think it is too general to be correct at this point in time. There are quite few newer schools all with different strengths and emphases.

    2. Some of the schools you list and the ones you have implied are making great strides forward in external doctoral training and overall research output.

    3. There is temporal inconsistency in your statement, as the programs that are entered now probably will be viewed very differently in four years (at least) it takes to matriculate them and the ensuing years of teaching. I say this because these programs are huge review generators and that cash is generally being plowed back into the programs to meet the demands of regional and programmatic accreditation.

    4. Graduates of the programs you list who already teach full time at non-AACSB schools have a good shot at tenure and those who are seeking full time teaching positions are likely to be in the running at smaller, non-AACSB schools; tenure probably will be possible for the latter simply on the basis of supply meeting the demand.

    5. The external Ph.D. options at the "reputable B&M" schools to which you refer are still very limited in business administration. Hence, the growth of the new schools. Still, such options at traditional schools should increase in number if the faculty and administration at such shools have any desire to be relevant over the coming decades.

    I'm not unbiased at all though, as I looked carefully at what was available in late 2001, and chose Touro based on the professors they had recruited and were trying to recruit. No scheduled residency was important, but I have had to attend several conferences to recruit my dissertation committee, and have taken the option to visit the campus repeatedly.

    In sum, dismissing these external / DL doctoral programs as some how less intense or capable of producing scholarship with frivolous comments is a risky business, in my view.

    Dave
     

Share This Page