Masters & Doc from same school?

Hi all-

Are there any pros or cons to be considered in getting a Masters and a Doctorate from the same school?

Example: MDiv and DMin from the same ATS accredited seminary.

Thanks,

Jon

 

Oftentimes, if you're planning on becoming a professor, it looks better to have your master's and doctorate from different schools because it proves you can survive grad school under different sets of professors (i.e., you're not just a teacher's pet.) On the other hand, getting accepted into a doctoral program directly from your bachelor's degree and picking up your master's "along the way" can be a quicker route to the degree.

 

On the other hand, the fact that you are looking for the MDiv and DMin would imply that you are looking for an ordained ministry rather than a professorate. You will certainly want your MDiv from one of your denomination's seminaries and, while I have heard of ordained ministers picking up a DMin from some other denomination's seminary (e.g., Lutheran MDiv taking his Lutheran pastorate and then getting his Presbyterian DMin), I'm not sure how common that is. Conversely, I'm not too terribly sure that it's all that common to be admitted from a bachelor's directly to a DMin while picking up the MDiv "on the way." Indeed, it seems to be quite common for DMin programs to require three years of ministerial experience post-MDiv before admitting one to their program.

 

I can't think of any problem with earning an MDiv and DMin from the same school when being hired as ministerial staff by local congregations. Personally, I think you would be better off trying to experience different faculties though. Moreover, a DMin isn't designed for teaching.

Earning a doctorate outside of religious contexts for teaching often is completed without taking a masters along the way. In fact, an MA is sometimes what one earns when exiting a Ph.D. program.

Dave

 

Re: Re: Masters & Doc from same school?

Actually, he would likely get his first pastorate with the MDiv, accumulate three years of experience, and then get his DMin. So, the question will not be: Will the church hire me with my MDiv and DMin from the same school? The questions will be: What denomination do I wish to preach for? (Get your MDiv at one of their schools) and: Where will my congregation pay my DMin tuition? (Get your DMin there).

 

Re: Re: Re: Masters & Doc from same school?

Your answer is correct, Ted, but it is worth mentioning that you answered an additional question that wasn't being asked. He was asking about pros and cons of earning the MDiv and DMin at the same seminary, and I answered that I couldn't think of any cons other than experiencing a different faculty might be beneficial. A logical addition to the conversation at that point might have been to express some cons or pros of which you are aware.

Dave

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Masters & Doc from same school?

Post 1: jcummings asks pros and cons of getting master's and doctorate from same school (e,g., MDiv and DMin from same seminary).

Post 2: Ted Heiks answers that the reason for getting the master's and doctorate from different schools is to prove one can survive under different professors while the reason for getting the master's and doctorate from the same school is to save time.

Post 3: Ted Heiks further elaborates that there is no direct admission to the DMin with MDiv "on the way" because the DMin usually requires three years' ministerial experience (implication: eliminates the time savings argument for getting the master's and doctorate at the same school). Ted Heiks further mentions being aware of a Lutheran MDiv who later earned a Presbyterian DMin (implication: differing perspectives argument for master's and doctorate at different schools preserved at least in some cases).

Post 4: Dave Wagner mentions seeing no problem with having an MDiv and a DMin from the same school in ministerial hiring decisions while mentioning the value of different perspectives resulting from getting the MDiv and DMin from different schools. Further commentary on doctorate without master's.

Post 5: Ted Heiks mentions that the first pastorate would be taken with the MDiv and then the DMin would be earned later (implications: #1 - MDiv from your denominational seminary and DMin from the seminary your church board approves; and #2 - for the first pastorate, the question of having the MDiv and the DMin from the same or different seminaries will be non-existent because one will not likely have the DMin yet anyway).

Post 6: Dave Wagner excoriates Ted Heiks regarding the alleged irrelevance of his previous comment because the question wasn't asked. Well, sometimes a question is being asked, albeit, imbedded in another question, and other times there is a prior question that should have been asked, and in the latter cases it seems proper to note the question(s) that should have been asked and answer them.

Post 7: Ted Heiks redacts this thread.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Masters & Doc from same school?

The original post referred to having an MDiv and DMin from the same seminary, which should be no problem.

Dave

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Masters & Doc from same school?

I never said it would be a problem. I did say in post 7 (specifically my redaction of post 5 therein) that the MDiv and DMin being from the same seminary would be a non-issue at the time of hire for the first pastorate because most DMin programs require three years experience as a prereq for admission; therefore, he would not likely hold a DMin at the time of initial hire, unless he could find a DMin that admits candidates with no ministerial experience. I also hinted in post 3 and specifically spelled it out in my redaction thereof in post 7 that the experience requirement for admission to the DMin pretty much eliminates the time savings advantage that one finds in doing a secular MA and PhD from the same school.

 

Dave and Ted,

I love it when you guys become so "spirited" in your discussions.

As an elaboration on my original question, I will be enrolling in an accredited MDiv program approved by my congregation next year. At that time I will be working full-time as an assistant pastor. The MDiv is 92 credits, taken part-time, so I will be meeting the 3 year ministry requirement for the DMin during that time.

My intention, which I should have mentioned in my previous post, is to engage in writing and research in conjunction with my ministry. This would not necessarily be in any kind of traditional academic environment, but as a natural outgrowth of my ministry efforts. My concern is having the credibility needed to be taken seriously as a researcher outside of the congregation. If the MDiv and DMin are from the same school, would Dave's thoughts on being regarded as a "teacher's pet" be more of a concern?

If it matters, the school is Roberts Wesleyan in Rochester, NY. (I have switched gears from Southern Christian to Roberts on the advice of my senior pastor and due to financial resources now being available that were not previously.)

I truly appreciate your thoughts. Thanks for your input!

 

At the risk of becoming more confused about the choices available, do you have any opinion as to ATS-accredited DTh programs with an MTh along the way? I have read the threads about the South African schools and they look good, but I wonder if a DTh from SA would be perceived as any kind of step down from an MDiv and DMin from Roberts Wesleyan?

Thanks again.

 

Well, let's see here. I was going to try to see if I could re-post attempted reconstructions of earlier posts I had made (but which posts seem to have vaporized the instant I hit the send button), but I'll try to tackle this question first.

First, I think it has been clarified hereinabove that the MDiv/DMin degrees are degrees for practical ministry. That said, the ThM/ThD are academic degrees that prepare one for a professorate in theology. The ThM, in the American context, is viewed [/i]by some[/i] as a four-year master's degree (that said, I would assert that both the American ThM and the British MTh are properly viewed as one year of work beyond the degree of ordination), while the British MTh (including other countries who follow the British system) is usually a thesis only proposition (the qualifier there being that some foreign schools do offer a coursework-plus-thesis MTh for those with non-theological undergrad degrees). The historical reason for the American ThM being either a a one-year master's degree that follows an earlier three year master's degree or else a four year master's degree consists in the fact that the degree of ordination in America, up to the 1960s, used to be the BD, a three year second bachelor's that followed upon one's earlier four-year bachelor's. Then, in the 1960s, the American BD was either upgraded or inflated (depending upon one's perspective) to a master's degree. So, previously, the American ThM was a one-year master's degree that came after the second bachelor's. In the British system, according to fellow poster Rev. Peter, the BD can be either a first bachelor's or a second bachelor's or a post-doctoral degree, depending on your school. Some concerns have been expressed about foreign thesis-only MTh's (and other master's degrees) and dissertation-only DTh's (and other doctorates) with respect to the eighteen-hour requirement. However, such concerns are likely unwarranted.

With respect to the question of the same or different school(s) for the ThM/ThD (or MTh/DTh), in most fields, American academics tend to prefer to see the master's and doctoral degrees from different programs for reasons of diversity of perspective. That said, you might want to see if your particular denomination wants different perspectives in their theological graduates' educations. In the British system, the academics tend to prefer the master's and doctorate from the same school because then one can build one's doctoral thesis upon the master's dissertation, while getting the master's and doctorate from different schools usually involves starting from scratch on one's doctoral thesis.

 

Re: Re: Masters & Doc from same school?

Often but not always. Some schools, particularly those that regularly make the prestige lists, have direct admissions to the doctorate (i.e., admission to the PhD with the BA only). Likewise, some majors, like psychology, tend to have direct admission to the doctorate. Your point about the MA being awarded "on the way out" is just that: yes, an individual who either washes out or walks away after successful completion of 30 semester hours/45 quarter hours plus comps in a direct admission doctoral program will be awarded the master's. But, that does not mean that one cannot take the master's "on the way": in my academic travels, I've seen many professors list their credential as "AM, PhD, Harvard University." It does mean that they will not admit one as a master's degree student (except, perhaps, in some rare circumstances).

 

Hopefully, this thread has not become too overly-belicose just yet. My point in this thread has been, so far, to elaborate on the advantages/disadvantages of secular MA/PhD from same/different school, firstly for reasons of setting that out for those who might have expected such from the thread title and secondly for reasons of using that as a backdrop for comparing the issue of advantages/disadvantages of MDiv/DMin from same/different school(s), with emphasis on determining whether there are different operative considerations for secular versus religious master's and doctoral programs. The advantage of getting the secular MA/PhD from the same school is basically time savings while the advantage of getting the secular MA/PhD degree from different schools is getting differing perspectives. Now, let us explore whether those considerations still apply to the issue of MDiv/DMin from same/different school(s).

As to the time savings from getting the secular MA/PhD from the same school, this usually results from getting the non-thesis MA before entering what would be the doctoral phase of coursework when getting the MA/PhD from the same school. However, the DMin normally requires three years of ministry experience for admission (qualifier: there may be some DMins that do not require prior ministry experience[/i]). Moreover, the MDiv is normally a non-thesis degree anyway (qualifier: for those who might be interested, Payne Theological Seminary does offer an MDiv with thesis ... and, to my delight, they also offer specific majors, including church history). So, in that context, the time savings would normally be negated (qualifier: however, you will have completed your three-year ministry requirement by the time of MDiv graduation). And, at any rate, there are few DMin programs that offer direct admission to the doctorate from the bachelor's (qualifier: there are two seminaries that I know of - Faith Evangelical Lutheran Seminary and Northwest Graduate School of Ministry - that will offer admission to the DMin without the bachelor's for experienced ministers).

As to the question of differing perspectives, which is the advantage of having the MA/PhD from separate schools, how does that pan out in the context of theological education? That, I would suppose, would depend upon whether one's denomination encourages, or even tolerates, theological diversity. Some of the more conservative fundamentalist denominations (think: those whose schools require very detailed statements of faith of the faculty and students at their schools) would seem to be less tolerant of theological diversity, in which case MDiv/DMin from the same school might seem to be an advantage. In denominations which encourage, or at least tolerate, theological diversity, having the MDiv/DMin from separate schools might be the way to go. A middle way might be to get the MDiv/DMin from different schools within the same denomination.

 

Well, now that you amateurs have weighed in, it's time for Mr. Cummings to hear from an expert in the field. That expert, of course, is moi. Okay, try not to put me on a pedestal, I can't help it if I'm brilliant. I was just born that way. And there's not a damn thing I can do about it. So get over it.

(Or is it Mr. Ummings? When one uses all lower case, he could be J. Cummings or J.C. Ummings. Or, come to think of it, it could be Ms. Cummings. Or Ms. Ummings. But I digress...)

But seriously (okay, it's Saturday morning, so cut me some slack)...

One has to consider Mr. Ummings', um, Mr. Cummings' stated goal in the original post: to become an apologist and counselor. (Just what the world needs - another Walter Martin/Norman Geisler/John Ankerberg/Josh McDowell/Francis Schaeffer wanna-be. Or he can become a combination of all five - a Baptist Romanist presuppositional evidentalist apologist who wears knickers.)

Traditionally for apologists - and even for seminary professors if you read enough catalogues - one does an M.Div. at his or her denominational seminary, or at least a seminary that is in doctrinal accord with the denomination. Then, for the doctorate, he or she goes the secular route.

As Madeline Kahn said, "It's twue, it's twue." Even in separatist Fundi circles such as Bob Jones University, you'll find a lot of professors who earned secular doctorates - the theory is that when going for your master's, you should do so at a school with which you are in doctrinal harmony. Then, for the doctorate, you're ready to place yourself in a more "hostile" environment so you can survive the heat of debate while winning heathen souls to the kingdom, etc.

I'm with Ted on the notion of getting your master's and doctorate from different schools - a look at any college catalogue will reveal that most (though not all) faculty list three separate degrees. Or four, five, or six if they're egotistical theologians.

Finally, with counseling as one of the stated goals, consider whether to go the licensure route (depending on the state in which you want to practice and the type of practice you seek, i.e., whether it's in the context of a pastorate or in a free-standing counseling center, as well as whether that state has a mandatory practice act or a voluntary title act for licensure). Keep in mind that the average M.Div. program has only two counseling courses - Intro. to Counseling and Marriage & Family Counseling. If you want to be a professional counselor, you'll need more than that. Likewise, if you want to be a professional apologist, you'll need more than the one 3-credit course you find in most seminaries.

In the end run, don't sweat reputation or get hung up on whether you have more than one institution represented among your graduate credentials - simply find the school(s) with the most comfortable learning model for you.

Oh, and forget the South African schools - stick with RA and ATS, if possible. If you want your credentials to be "beyond reproach," that's the only way to pull it off. If you're determined to have a credible foreign credential (although I've never seen the need for it), stick with the major European schools like Strasbourg, Tubingen, etc. Most people view the South African, and even the Australian, schools as cheap alternatives that don't have the same panache.

I have spoken. Class dismissed.

 

Lord Levicoff, who hath come down from the mountain, we are not worthy!

 

Or is it J. C. U. Mmings?

 

The secular route doctorate for apologists and seminary professors?

 

Steve,

So you would suggest a PhD vs. the DMin? Also, thanks for the tip on the SA schools. I do want the credentials to be the best I can achieve.

BTW, for edification, it's J. Cummings. But thanks for asking...

 

The way I'm reading it, the PhD or ThD would be more appropriate to your goal of becoming an apologist, while the DMin would be more appropriate to your goal of becoming a pastoral counselor.