Ten TESC (or Charter Oaks) questions

Hi, I have several questions about TESC that I'm wondering if anyone can help with? I'm feeling really confused and alone!

1. I have completed about 100 credits through CLEP's and community college classes towards a BA in Music, and plan to finish the rest through the community college. Is there any way to get TESC to do an unofficial transcript evaluation so I can see if my credits meet what they want for a degree?? I can't afford to enroll with them and then find out that my classes don't line up with what they want. If it's not the school I want, why would I want to enroll to find that out?! (If any compassionate soul has lots of experience with TESC, I would be so happy to send you my template of classes and where I think they'd fit into TESC's degree plan to get your feedback!)

2. Are there other DL schools who will do an unofficial transcript eval. without making you pay them?

3. Is TESC the best school to go through to get a BA in Music with only CLEP and CC credit? What other schools are options? Are there any that are less expensive?

4. Will TESC give me a GPA if I don't take any classes through them?

5. Would Charter Oak's degree read "Bachelor of Arts" without saying anything about Music? That seems kind of weird.

6. With TESC's duplication of credit policy, does that mean that I can't get credit for taking an activity class (PE or strings or piano for example) more than once?

7. The TESC catalog said that I can only have two classes in my concentration area (music) at the 100 level, but how do they decide what level a class is at? Nearly ALL of my CC music classes are 100 level in the CC catalog...

8. In your opinion is it wrong or dumb or ?? to get a BA in a subject that I've only had lower division training in? I know it's legal and accredited, but it seems a little fishy to me. But then again, it sure would be nice to be able to finish school now rather than having to take a year to finish GE's that I've already done through CLEP's, then two more years of upper-div music classes! Ack.

9. How many extra units do I have to take to get a minor through TESC? If I do a second bachelor's, can I use part of the 27 free elective credit from the first bachelor's?

10. Any other things I should know about TESC? Is the TESC staff pretty easy to work with in general?

Well, there ya have it. The confusion of Naomi. Thanks for reading.

 

Maybe Steve Levicoff will come down from the mountain and grace us with his presence.

 

Yay, I have heard thy cries in the wilderness and have come down from the mountain unto thee. Take good notes; there will be a quiz at the end of the epistle...

It's the school you want, but be prepared for incompetence from any school in which you enroll. If you are not prepared to take responsibility for guiding your own path unto divinity, don't bother enrolling anywhere. But I get the impression you are prepared for that - your questions show that you are thinking this through intelligently.

With that in mind, no school will give you a free evaluation (and if one does, it's a degree mill). This is because they deal with too many people that take up their time and don't enroll. The notion that you will receive no substantive services until you enroll is universal.

You are obviously intelligent enough to figure out where your current courses will fit into the big TESC picture. Do your own template based on their B.A. Humanities model, except that instead of having three humanitareas represented under the major, there will be only one - music. At the same time, if you want to have a minor, as you discuss below, consider simply broading your major to the B.A. in Humanities per se.

Um, see above.

You can read scads here about the "big three" - TESC, Excelsior, and COSC. COSC, of course, only has the generic major. The choice between TESC and Excelsior is simply a matter of preference viz. their program model.

Probably not, but to paraphrase Blazing Saddles, "GPA? We don't need no stinkin' GPA."

Yes. But if you're talking about the diploma, so would TESC's. As a general rule, diplomas include only the degree title, not the major.

If by PE you mean physical education, TESC does not grant credit for phys ed activity courses at all. As far as music, there is not reason you should not get multiple credit - the course may sound the same, but the repertoire is different, and TESC's music evaluators know the nature of performance-based classes. In other words, if you take strings in two semesters and you play all Bach in one semester and all Mozart in the next semester, you have not duplicated credit.)

Okay, I may be a bit outdated here, so you shoulc check into this further, but when I did my music credit at TESC, anything over six credits in a single subject (like, um, music) was considered upper level. In other words, if you have 3 credits in each of Strings 101, Woodwinds 101, Piano 101, and Percussion 101, six of those 12 credits would be considered upper level.

But it's what nontraditional education has always been about - getting credit for already knowing what some numb-nut taking a class for the first time doesn't yet know.

Assume, for example, Johnny takes Piano 101. He will learn the keys, the scales, and that he has to move his thumb under his next two fingers when playing the fourth note of the scale on up. He will learn triads and, if he's lucky, by the end of the semester he'll be able to play Bach's Minuet in G.

You, on the other hand, can belt out a pretty decent version of a Chopin Polinaise. So, is it fishy for you to earn the credit that Johnny will earn for the Bach minuet? Hardly.

Ya got me. I did my B.A. in Humanities, so all I had to pull off was 33 credits in any three subjects in that area. Remember, however, that it doesn't mater whether you have a major and a minor, it simply matters that you have the degree. The real learning comes with the next degree.

Absolutely, but learn to take control of your academic progress. As a general rule, the people that whine about any of the schools are the ones who were too lazy to manage their own programs.

Delighted. I shall now return to the mountaintop. Or to my truck, whichever I find first.

 

Everything you said is correct expect, "Badges, we don't need no stinkin' badges" - The Treasure of the Sierra Madre

 

No, everything I said is correct, period. The line originated in Sierra Madre, but was quoted directly in Blazing Saddles.

You and I know the original source, but most young people remember only the Blazing Saddles version. And one thing I've learned is not to flaunt my knowledge. Subtlety is everything.

By the way, the word is except, not expect.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

review all the options

if i were you review all the options ; have you spoken with a counselor at your community college ?

perhaps they can give you some advice on the traditional ...and you can look at the distance or the non-traditional over here or write to john bear .....

and it depends what will you do with your BA in music also ...

 

my 2 cents.

I'm leaning to Excelsior b/c they will calc. a gpa. FYI.

 

I guess you got me. Except / expect - fingers were moving to fast-

 

Wow--thanks for all the great input! That helps a lot.

I spent nearly all day today and yesterday researching Excelsior after reading what ya'll had to say. I hadn't even really considered it, so thanks for pointing me in that direction. Sounds like if I go through them (or Indiana U.) I have to do 40 more credits and lose 19 that I've already earned because of their upper-div requirements. Thomas Edison looks easier (will only have to do 25 more and can use all the credits I've earned??) and can be completed at the community college, but it still bugs me a little that I won't get a GPA. Also I feel funny not having to do any upper division work. Unlike some of you geniuses on here, I do not have any upper division experience or any particular expertise. I feel like I'm cheating to get a degree without learning anything "hard." The GPA is important (??) because I wish to go to Fuller Theological for grad school and they require it. But perhaps I need to call and find out if that's flexible.

FYI, Indiana U's School of Continuing Studies will do an unofficial transcript evaluation in less than 24 hours without having to pay them a cent... I guess I assumed that was standard. Too bad.

In the meantime, anyone know of where I can do (cheap) upper-div music classes from a distance? If I can't find them, then Excelsior is kind of out of the question since I have to do 15 units
of upper-div.

Thanks for taking the time to help me. I'm super grateful. If anyone else has anything to add I'd love to hear it.

Who is John Bear and how can I find him?

Happily, Naomi

 

You can probably use all the credits you have earned at either TESC or Excelsior, although they may not all count toward the degree. In other words, a school might still transcript the credits whether or not they are directly applicable, which means that your transcript may show more than the minimum 120 credits (which can never hurt you).

No, you're merely having your knowledge recognized, which is what it's all about at the undergrad level. Of the 24 credits in music I earned for my B.A. in Humanities, 12 of those credits (in various areas of performance as well as in choral harmony) were earned in the course of one hour spent with their evaluator (who was a professor at a community college located near TESC). The whole key to nontraditional education is that it doesn't matter how you know what you know, but that you know what you're supposed to know.

If you plan on grad school, you only need one goal: to get the B.A. The fact is that you will not necessarily learn anything new - because you have already learned what you need to know to earn the B.A. There's no shame in that. The real learning starts with grad school.

Talk to Fuller (which, incidentally, is an outstanding grad school). I think you'll find that they are flexible on the issue of the GPA. Remember, their catalogue is written for traditional college grads, not adult grads from non-traditional programs. And my bet is that they would not turn down a TESC grad, nor would any school of their type with similar status or prestige (Dallas, TEDS, Reformed, etc.). TESC grads have a great record when it comes to grad school admissions, even with the evangelical "cadillac" schools like Fuller.

You won't find many, since performance-based classes are normally not offered by distance. As for theory, history, etc., most music classes offered by distance would tend to be lower level. So this is where you get creative - see if TESC, Excelsior, etc. would accept credit for courses from the M.A. in Humanities program at Cal State Dominguez Hills. Then simply use grad courses for undergrad upper credit.

That has to be the best question I've ever read here. You are definitely a fresh face in this joint, Naomi.

John is the "guru" in distance education. If you're Fuller-bound, think of him as Charles Ryrie, John MacArthur, and Harold Lindsell combined. These days, John hangs out at degreediscussion.com, a forum similar to this one, although he's spending the summer in Europe meditating on his navel. (Or at least his Tibetan wife is.)

 

John Bear is author/co-author of fifteen editions of _Bears' Guide to Earning Degrees by Distance Learning_ and he now hangs at a place called degreediscussion.com.

 

It is not really correct to call Dr John Bear a "guru" of distance education because his ventures to make a cheap accredited distance university (Greenwich and Fairfax) surprisingly failed. His expertise is mostly in identifying bogus institutions. Consequently in the past this influenced the discussion culture on this forum. Contributors are however still overwhelmingly interested in easy ways to get degrees and denoucing (rightly) fraud. However, next to nothing is said about member networking to make an institution.

 

Not cheap, but 6 quarter hours (4 semester hours) of upper-level music history:

http://www.ohiou.edu/independent/list2.htm#mus

A lot of places offer jazz history as upper-level credit, (e. g. Indiana Univ)

http://scs.indiana.edu/univ/subjects/mus.html

If you find courses in other subjects, please post em.

 

John Bear resigned from Fairfax soon after enrolling the first students. Greenwich self-destructed about six or seven years after Dr. Bear left the presidency thereof. How is Dr. Bear responsible for those schools' failures?

 

I have corresponded with John Bear for 30 years. I thought that when he launched Fairfax and Greenwich he would have had the contacts, expertise, goodwill, and knowledge of procedures to do as well as, for example, Phoenix University. Obviously there was a problem with management skills. He did not create good teams.

Judging from the abuse that past contributers have suffered in this forum when floating tenative thoughts on launching a new venture, this may still not be the ideal place to discuss such matters. However, I believe that courses could be easily garnered using already available material (including MIT courses) for a Bachelor of Business Adminsitration. Fees should be high enough so that fees from 100 students could pay for the first DETC inspection.

 

Hi again. Wow, the potential in this distance learning thing is amazing--and time consuming to research! I've checked into 30-50 schools in the last week, and at least for price and not having to do a certain number of units through a particular school, the Big 3 really do seem like the best deal.

I think I've decided on TESC to save the time and $ of having to get 30 units of upper-div finished. I'd rather go to Excelsior for their GPA, Music mentioned on the diploma, and their great price...

I called them, and of course you are right. They just said they'd calculate a GPA themselves. So I guess the only reason a GPA matters to me for my bachelor's is that I've worked myself silly maintaining a 4.0 at the community college. Also, if I need scholarships for grad school, the only scholarship category I fit into currently is merit based on that 4.0. If it's not listed from TESC, then that goes out the window. Right? Or am I missing something? Can I use a CC GPA for a grad school scholarship app.?

Glad I could humor you. Thanks for teaching this newbie. And yes, I know nothing except what I've learned in the last week or so of internet hunting. That's why your input has been SO valuable. Thanks.

Does Mr. Bear mind getting PM's? I haven't written to him yet 'cause if he's THAT big I don't wanna bug him.

So is it possible or likely that I could earn a lot of upper-div units through Excelsior from my 5 years of teaching private piano lessons to 34 kids/adults? I also accompanied for 2 high school choirs for a full school year (in class and for performances) and occasionally for a third. If you think they are likely to do that--and it won't take a ton of work on my end--then I would go with Excelsior.

I also attended a vocational skills center for 2.5 years when I was in high school. I was in the Office Automation Technology program where we studied all aspects of how to be a great secretary, basically. Through that program I did an internship with a CPA, and later with the Dept. of Health. We studied several software programs in depth too. Since then I've worked as an office assistant at a law firm, for a nursing home, as a receptionist for an electrical company, and as a church secretary. Can any of that be easily turned in to upper-div credit? I'm kind of skidish about portfolios because some of my friends who went through the Big 3 had lots of trouble with them.

Would any TESC experienced person care to look at my template of classes for any obvious errors? I put the classes where I think they'd fit in the TESC model and listed my proposed classes to finish up. I'm trying to wait to enroll with them 'til the end of this semester so I can be sure to finish with them within a year of enrolling and I don't get charged more moola! But it would be nice to know if the classes I'm thinking to take this semester should be something different.

Thanks again for your time,
Naomi