A Criminal Justice Thread Has Me Thinking

Which is odd for anyone who knows me.

But this question is directed at all hiring managers, public and private sector, law enforcement and not.

Here's the skinny. Several cops, some here, myself included and some that I work with; have deluded themselves (me included) into thinking that someone who has worked in law enforcement anywhere from the last 5 years to 20 years with little to no experience in business, actually has a shot in business if they have an MBA or a BS in Business.

I have subscribed to this grand delusion, but is it a delusion?

Some that I know say: "there's nobody who's going to hire a cop to do anything but cop or security work". These are the nay-sayers who argue that this is a good reason not to go to school.

There are others who say, "Get a neutral degree like an MSM (Management) because it applies equally to law enforcement and private business" yet they have only done law enforcement and not business.

Then there are others who say "Get an MPA, it will be taken more seriously in law enforcement and you can use it in private sector work later"....these cops generally like people (applicants) who know what they want and major in Public Administration, Homeland Security or Criminal Justice and tend to look down their noses at MBA's who work a patrol beat. I tend to see their point.

Then there are us doe-eyed youngsters who believe that after a decade in law enforcement we still have the laughable advantage of a career change into private sector if we have an MBA. We are sneered at by the "old-heads" with no degree. We are scorned by the MPA/MSCJ crowd who think we cannot make up our minds.

So my question(s) is (are):

What gives with the MPA? Is it a capable degree in private sector? How would it rate against the MSM or MBA?

What would you advise someone like me for instance.....

I worked in IT for a total of 13 months and was pretty much a failure (though gloriously so) because I got laid off twice in that time.

So I jumped into law enforcement and have been doing so for 5 years. I'm a supervisor, and would like to continue in govt. work but also may go work for a security operation for a major corp. like Lockheed. I never intend on getting back into IT and the only reason I can see myself leave LE work is for another govt. job or for a private security exec. position.

Would someone like me really be wasting their time with an MBA? Would it make more sense to pay half as much and get an MSM? Or would it make sense to stick with the public sector mentality and do an MPA?

Does it look professionally indecisive to get an MBA instead of an MPA when one has experience and an undergrad degree in CJ?

I had all but decided to do the MBA, but I have several people tell me it is a waste of time that the MPA or MSM are a better fit.

Am I fooling myself thinking a cop really has a shot in business? If not, would an MBA make the difference?

I also thought of doing an RA-MPA and NA-MBA (DETC).....you know for the MPA/MBA thing after my name, technically I’d have a RA graduate degree and an accredited MBA. I've not found an MBA with emphasis in PA that I like........

So what says the hiring galley?

 

I'm not in the "hiring galley", but I thought of this same thing, myself. My sister-in-law is a Harvard MBA, with extensive business experience, including a big-shot position at Bain Capital (Mitt Romney's company).

I asked her about the chances of a former police officer with an MBA breaking into the business world, and her response was succinct.....you could break-in all right, but it would be the business equivalent of "would you like fries with that?".

Of the hundreds of police officers I've worked with over my career, there has only been one who left the job, voluntarily, for another career before retirement. He earned a law degree, and is now doing public defense work for less money than he made as a police officer (although he'd never admit it).

 

First thought that came to mind is what is the definition one is using for "Business World"? Is that defined by Fortune 500? I am not saying that it is or isn't (although I would argue, many people do consider the Fortune list a good measuring tool), but it is important to know what the definition being used is.

Personally, I believe the semantics between MBA, MSM, MS, MA (business majors) is moot when it comes to Fortune 500 corporations (biggest caveat is the name of the school attended - the upper tier Universities get hiring managers (1) Excited or (2) Intimidated).

What type of job is the officer looking for? Front-line management? Corporate Security? Technology Management? Corporate Trainer? Human Resources? Accounting? Actuary? Print? Certifications in almost every one of those areas abound - such as the Chartered Mgmt Accountant (CMA), Certified Fraud Examiner (CFE) and MSCE and so on.

A police officer has customer skills, leadership skills, decision making ability, teamwork skills and I am sure I can vomit a lot more out. It's all in earning the Masters to be able to get the door open and the personal presentation during the interview to be invited to play. I wouldn't get too much brain damage about what degree and what major. Who would want to work for a company that spent so much time constructing a glass-ceiling culture?

I worked for 12 years for a Fortune 25 Finance concern in Senior Mgmt and all that was cared about was have a degree and convince us you are the best (I still love the co, BTW). Now I work as a FLEO and won't ever look back. Incidentally, the MBA served me well both in corporate and for the Feds.

Bottom line, and it's been said here at least 3 times a day, get the degree you want - fire off resumes, get certifications, *volunteer*, make contacts, you know - politic.

 

So, he went from tossin' 'em in the hoose-gow to tryin' to keep 'em out? Interesting switch.

 

I think it depends on what area of business, the size of the company, and at which level you are looking to enter the business. I am a property management executive. Most of our portfolio is multifamily real estate (townhouse and apartment communities). Some of these communities are in tough, intimidating areas. I would have no problem hiring a former police officer with a business degree to manage one of these communities. In the Maryland/DC/Virginia area, this job would likely start you at around $40,000 to $50,000 a year depending on the size of the community. Once the officer gained real, on-the-job experience and proved his worth as a manager, the fact that he was once an officer would be quickly forgotten. I have a former policeman and a former soldier working for me right now at the same property...one as a manager and the other as a maintenance technician.

Pug

 

I think it depends on the company. For example, I have a couple friends who work for a large "private sector" company. The company they work for hires MPA's to work in their gov't sector handling gov't accounts, contracts, etc.

Maybe the answer is a MBA with a Public Administration specialization?

 

I have a friend who left law enforcement to become a lawyer, and did a pretty glorious job of the latter. Now this is a pretty special sort of guy, he resigned as police chief to go to law school. He graduated first in his class from a small but respectable school. He founded a decent little criminal defense firm in Los Angeles and did exceptionally well. He now lives in a veritable mansion in the midwest, having taken an early semi-retirement in his upper 40s.

http://www.allen-ehrle.com/profile1.htm


It can be done.

 

Well, from most of the replies, with the exception of the law degree, it seems that the degree was almost irrelevant as long as they had one?

I like management and I'm pretty sure if I can manage 9 surly cops I can manage anyone....so I'd like to stick to that whether private or public sector. I also like CJ and security work, I don't give a rat's ass about accounting, marketing, etc. But I think the concept of the MBA has gone from one of a generalist business degree to the perception that it is a generalist management degree...do you guys agree that this is the current perception of the MBA?

I think that the perception of the MBA as a management degree even prevails over the MSM as being a management degree or the MPA. Agree?

 

I think the MPA would suit you better and would look like a natural progression from police officer. Wouldn't make you look like a wannabe exec. Makes more sense.

 

Thanks little faus.........anyone else?

 

One area that a law enfocement background will serve you well is auditing, especially internal auditing, and fraud investigation in a corporate setting.

One of my former students (accounting undergrad) had CPA firms fighting over him specifically because of his law enforcement background.

One does not have to have an accounting degree to become an internal auditor.

 

I have seen criminal investigators go on to auditing positions....however I didn't know anything about their educational background.

I work with a Lt. right now who has an MEd. and a MPA and a couple other guys I know are considering an MPA. One has a JD and is considering getting an MBA but he is more of a white collar crime kind of guy.

So I'm really debating between the MPA and MBA.

In private security will the lean go to either? For the price of the MBA I want I can get an MPA and MSCJ or an MPA and a NA MBA.

Any advice? Observations?

 

Explore the NCU website and look seriously at their MBA with a specialization in CJ. It is a great program and has opened doors for me in the private and public sector. I left law enforcement after 30 years with no degree and no job. Some security spots were available but that was it. It's unbelievable the defference the degree makes with the experience. Also, converse with Craig Novick who is the Chief of a large department in NJ. He was the one that turned me on to NCU and I can't thank him enough. I believe Criag is also an adjuct professor at several universities.

 

I personally went with the MBA/Public Administration degree. I've worked in law enforcement for 7 years and plan on retiring in 19 years. Prior to law enforcement career, I worked in senior mangement for loss prevention for 8 years.

Our Lt. has a master's in criminal justice. He told me if he were to do it over again, he would have probably purused the MBA instead. It's more versatile and is still very applicable to management in law enforcement.

A city and/or country operates very similar to that of a business. The city council are the board of directors, city manager is CEO, finance director is CFO, chief of police is director of security, head of public works is director of maintenance, ect..

My opinion is that an MBA is more recognizable on a resume and abroad. MSM, MPA's are more specialized, not that there is anything wrong with that. In my opinion, the MBA covers a broader aspect in all facets of business and management.

But, herein lies the challenge. There are lots of cops out there retiring and pursuing the glorious dream of a corporate security job. In order to make this become reality, you must strategically and competitvely make yourself standout among the rest of the applicants. This includes your experience, education, certifications, volunteer work, awards, honor societies, ect. It goes way beyond just having a master's degree. With online education booming, there are going to be a lot more people out there with a master's degree.

 

I did check out NCU, but the tuition is too high, they don't have financial aid and my superiors won't sign the partnership agreement between my workplace and the school......... So, the only other MBA I'm even remotely interested in is the one at St. Josephs College of Maine.

I guess I have to ask, is the MBA really worth all the hype? I thought computer certs were back in the mid 1990's and haven't used them since.....they were almost all hype.

 

jag.....you may have a point.

I've kind of promised myself to get the ASIS "PSP" and "CPP" certs on my own as well as some vendor neutral certs like the Security+ by Comptia.

I'm seeing more and more integration between information security and physical security, to the point to where the traditional "security" head also monitor IT security. So I'm going to capitalize on my IT stuff already....not that I have enough to be a tech (I'm no expert) , but I do have enough to know when I'm being snowed over (I'm competent and can catch up quick), which should be enough to manage with.


So I guess I could put the MSCJ on the far back burner or just get an NA one or the Ft. Hayes State University MLS in Criminal Justice, I would like to retire from security and law enforcement as a college instructor part time or the like. I enjoy teaching new cadets, etc.

Another degree I looked at was the MS in Human Resource Training and Development by Amberton University.... but I don't know what the heck I would do with that in management.

 

I'm paying $285.00 per credit hour at NCU and I don't have an agreement. Law enforcement automatically get the 40% discount on tuition. Check with the admissions people. You can't beat $855.00 per course. All this for RA and ACBSP soon?

 

Chsheaf........your department never signed an agreement?

I don't understand, I thought the agreement was a requirment for the discount.

 

Here is NCU's advertisement refernce law enforcement admissions:

"Law enforcement, corrections, and fire service personnel who are ready to apply for admission to NCU should complete the online application for admission. Enter your Priority Code of "LAW" on Step 2 of the online application to receive the special tuition rate for qualified personnel. Submit the online application and the $50 application fee. An NCU representative will contact you to complete the application process and assist you with your enrollment."

 

Friendorfoe, clean out your mailbox, I am trying to send you a PM but it won't go through.... Thanks