I recently received this book, published by the American Council on Education, titled; Lessons From the Edge; For-Profit and Nontraditional Higher Education in America. I haven't had the chance to start it yet, but it certainly looks interesting. Has anyone read this yet? Considering the University of Phoenix sent it to me, I can probably guess how it's going to go. Once I finish it, I'll post a review, and gladly send it along to anyone else who'd like to read it, provided they agree to do the same when they're done with it.
Hi Bruce, I own this book as well. I read the the chapter on faculty and thumbed through the rest of the book. There are many interesting conclusions in the book relative to distance education, that could be debated extensively here. The glorification of the student as a customer and the commoditization of faculty are two subjects that I'm not certain that are completely put to rest in the book. I would encourage you publish your thoughts about the book chapter by chapter and let the community discuss the "findings" in the book. Dave
Re: Re: Lessons from the Edge And what are you suggesting the student is, if not the customer of an education business? And what are you suggesting the faculty are, if not the labor of an education business?
Re: Re: Re: Lessons from the Edge I'm suggesting that society at large and potential employers are customers of the education alongside the student. I'm suggesting that faculty are far from a commodity but really the only competitive advantage. Dave
Re: Re: Re: Re: Lessons from the Edge I'm suggesting that education is a business and that the faculty are the laborers, degrees/knowledge are the products/services, and students are the customers. Prospective employers and society at large are not the customers. Prospective employers are customers in the labor market, where they buy the services of people who have either greater or lesser amounts of education. This, however, does not make them customers of the education business per se. Faculty are indeed the labor force of the education business. Unfortunately, like most other labor forces, they have become commoditized, like it or not.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lessons from the Edge I'm with Ted on this one. Otherwise, why aren't the customers of the busiess who hires the alumnus also a customer of the university? Now, you might consider those secondary entities to be stakeholders of the university, but that's not the same thing. -=Steve=-
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lessons from the Edge Well, let's follow this one to its logical consequences and see what happens. So, let us concede that the businessmen who hire the alumni are the real customers of the university. If we concede this, then we are saying that the businessman can go down to the local employee factory (er, university), place an order for x number of employees to be produced, the foreman (er, university president) has the head of the parts department (er, dean of admissions) purchase so much raw materials (er, students), whereupon the laborers (er, professors) re-work those raw materials into finished products (er, employees), assembly line fashion. Is this the educational model that the members of this board wish to subscribe to?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lessons from the Edge You're mistaken on this point, in my opinion. The student has neither the ability to pay the complete cost of the education (e.g.., loans and tuition reimbursement are necessary) nor the understanding to define the product (e.g., substandard education exists in the marketplace). Moreover, ultimately, faculty can not do everything possible to delight the student in the role as a customer. For example, poor performance should generate low evaluations, and standards should not be lowered to generate high customer satisfaction. It is possible to look at parties other than the student as stakeholders as Steve has suggested, but the business of higher education can also be modeled as a complex sale; that is, there are multiple buying authorities. Again, the student is not the primary consumer in higher education; that ilk of messaging is just a fad in current attempts at "for profit" education. Dave
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lessons from the Edge In other words, students are by nature idiots and, as such, there needs to be an all-knowing authority to know what the students' best interests are.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lessons from the Edge No, I was thinking in terms of writing and funding a business plan, and associated operational considerations. Dave
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lessons from the Edge That is not at all what you said. You said that students are not the customers in the education business because they're too dumb to know what they want. Presumably, the professors (salesmen) have to tell the students what they want. You also said that business and society are the real customers.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lessons from the Edge This is what I said: "I'm suggesting that society at large and potential employers are customers of the education alongside the student. " Dave
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lessons from the Edge Prospective employers are customers of the education business only if the student is a passive product that gets worked and re-worked as it goes down the assembly line. Your reasoning for stating that society is the customer of the education business is that the student might take out a student loan. If that is the case, the bank is the real customer in the real estate business, unless the home-buyer pays cash on the barrell-head. You moreover suggest that students do not know what they want. That is bull. A prospective student who purchases the services of an institution of higher education is in exactly the same position as the businessman who hires the services of a business consultant. Both know exactly what they want/need: knowledge. And so they purchase that knowledge from those that have it.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lessons from the Edge This is what I said: "The student has neither the ability to pay the complete cost of the education (e.g.., loans and tuition reimbursement are necessary) nor the understanding to define the product (e.g., substandard education exists in the marketplace)." Actually, the statement seems to make sense to me, as I read it again. By definition, the student doesn't know enough to define the curriculum. That squares nicely with reality. Dave
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lessons from the Edge The student, however, is smart enough to know what subjects he needs/wants to know about just as a businessman knows what he needs to know about, and the professor delivers that information to the student just as the consultant delivers the information to the businessman. To say that the student hasn't the understanding to define the product because substandard schools exist is also quite insulting; substandard products/services exist in almost every line of business.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lessons from the Edge I think you're saying that students know what learning objectives should be included in a degree program and to suggest that they don't is insulting to them. If what you say is true, then we would expect to find most students majoring in general studies and demonstrations to protest fixed majors. I don't recall seeing either but perhaps you're right. I would be interested in hearing more of your theories about higher education. Dave
Hi Ted, It also took me a minute to understand the guitar reference. U2's lead guitarist goes by the stage name "The Edge". Dave
