RA vs. NA, perspective from a student/hiring professional

RA vs. NA One man’s experience

Okay, so I’m out of school for 2 weeks and have read some rather hotly debated threads over accreditation, etc. Par for the course around here, but I thought I’d throw in some information for anyone who really gives a rip about my opinion.

But in my defense, here is why my opinion may prove valid.

1.) I hire people and interview candidates several times a year for a quasi-governmental agency.
2.) I am considered the departmental resident expert (unofficial) in education whenever someone lists a school on a resume. I have caught misrepresentations, flat out lies and even a few degree mill offerings in the past 2 years.
3.) I have researched the subject even to the extent of reading a dissertation on the matter, which though interesting, was a dissertation none-the-less.
4.) I work hand in hand with HR people in hiring decisions and work on an interview board.
5.) I have attended and completed a NA degree and will be completing an RA degree in 18 weeks give or take a couple. So I have a student/professional perspective.

Reasons not to listen to me:

1.) I am one man and probably do not represent everyone (of course).
2.) I am not a seer of the future.
3.) Ultimately education is your decision.

Now since I love itemized lists because it cuts to the point here are some hard but true observations in my limited experience as a student and a hiring professional.

A.) Experience counts. A degree is often a great add on or a requisite, but extensive experience in a field is priceless.
B.) A degree has generally been considered a poor investment if money is all that you seek, the return on investment will be disappointing, at least according to Dr. Bear and some others that I have discussed with, read and researched. That amount of money you spend could probably be better spent elsewhere; however if education is your #1 priority, a degree is a runner up only to experience.
C.) Almost everyone here is pro-distance learning, and though the “online” or distance education is valuable and in my book superior because it allows for a growth in experience at the same time, many HR reps or hiring managers, especially the ones who were HR or hiring before the internet was common, will have 2 categories of educational background…online and traditional. Of course almost everyone I work with believes that the traditional education is superior (because that’s the way THEY did it) and the online degree is something regarded as a box to be checked as being a requirement for the job. Very rarely does the accreditation come up unless the school has an unfamiliar sounding name or the degree was completed extremely fast, etc.
D.) Some HR people are very on top of education; they will pull out a big book published by someone like the U.S. Dept. of Education and look the school up if there is a question. More often than not the DETC degree granting agency (college, university, etc.) will be listed within that text, which closes that debate.
E.) Some HR people know very little about education, they fall somewhere from “heck any degree so long as it’s legal” to “regional accreditation only because I’ve never heard of _______” (fill in the blank).
F.) In order of importance is:
1.) Is there experience required and if so has it been met?
2.) Is a degree required, has it been listed?
3.) Has the degree actually been completed or is this a lie? (Believe it or not, a lot of applicants flat out lie. What? You didn’t know I had a PhD. From Harvard?)
4.) Has the degree been completed or is there funny wording? (For example I have had people list a degree when in fact they have not completed it and are “still taking classes” yet it is not denoted on the app. or resume).
5.) Is the degree from a real school or just made up? (Hasn’t happened to me, but has happened.)
6.) Is the degree from a mill or a “life experience” degree?
7.) If from a real school, what is the degree in and is it relevant to the job?
8.) If from a real school, have I heard of it?
9.) If I have not heard of it, are they accredited?
10.) Generally if you have gotten this far in the questioning, most hiring managers and HR reps I work with are satisfied because the school is in the “big book”. However there may be the occasional stickler who will ask….
11.) Is the degree regionally accredited? A caveat to this question, more often than not the question may have to do with professional certification or industrial standards which are set by someone other than the hiring manager or HR rep. For example, TCLEOSE or the Commission which certifies Peace Officers in Texas states that for an officer to receive an Educational Excellence award or meet standards for post secondary education the degree must be from an institution accredited by one of the six regional accrediting agencies, distance learning is fine…however, another is the CPA licensing agency in Texas requires not only a regionally accredited degree, but one with a minimum of 36 accounting hours that was NOT AWARDED BY DISTANCE EDUCATION OR THE INTERNET. Same thing with the Texas Bar Association…Distance education regardless of accreditation is not allowable….Lastly, some professional organizations and licensing agencies overseen by the State of Texas require an internship or apprenticeship or clinical during the degree completion phase, thus ruling out any sort of distance education. More often than not, it does NOT come down to who accredits the degree, but how the degree was completed, at least in Texas, whenever a RA degree is specified.
12.) Accreditation seemingly is a bigger issue in government work than in private sector. HOWEVER, often time the government doesn’t pay enough to attract qualified candidates. Often times although the criteria will not be changed on paper, someone lesser qualified will be given the position due to the need to fill it. Thus they say something like “MBA preferred” or “will also consider” somewhere in the wording. Translates often to “we don’t pay the industry standard and are desperate”, though not always.

G.) A degree is a little blurb on your resume. What gets you hired is a smorgasbord of stuff ranging from experience, to education to background, what the employer is looking for, how you speak, how you dress…..something I should add very quickly……how you dress for an interview is JUST AS IMPORTANT as your degree on that piece of paper. I have seen guys get shot down for wearing sneakers with Dockers pants and a denim shirt with a tie, simply because of how they dress. This is probably more universally true than most admit. So keep your degree in perspective, it’s a big deal to us, but a 30 second (or less) glance to someone looking to potentially hire you, your resume will get you an interview, if they’re talking to you, more often than not, YOU, not your degree, will make or break the job.
H.) NA vs. RA…….there is some merit, but a better question should be “distance” education vs. “traditional” education. I would be willing to bet, that though the gap is closing, there is a larger gap between “online” degree and “traditional” degree than between RA vs. NA. I haven’t conducted research, I’ve just observed the attitudes of my dozen or so colleagues and bosses and our HR staff.
I.) A recognized name school will often be chosen over a non-recognized named school regardless of quality, perceived or real. However I have NEVER, EVER seen education being named as the determining factor between two candidates in probably over 50 or so candidates. Again, not empirical, just an observation of what goes on behind closed doors.
J.) The interview, stress education too much, they will think you have no real world experience…so don’t talk it up so much, instead point to personal attributes and experience, we put a lot of emphasis on education here, the real world looks at is like you would look at mustard for a hot-dog, it’s a condiment, it doesn’t make it or break it, just adds to it. So don’t rave over the mustard and not the dog….it doesn’t make sense.

 

Cont.


As a student, I find a strong similarity in quality between RA vs. NA schools in rigor of work, in fact I made lower grades in NA schools because the “participation” was not factored in, only the raw output of research into papers and testing. I have found that in the professional environment, my NA degree has NEVER been questioned and generally has been accepted without an eyelash being batted. However the industry changed on me, TCLEOSE changed their standards to only recognizing RA degrees. No explanation offered other than the unofficial one given that many officers were achieving “Master” certification or whatever with “life experience” degrees, thus abusing the system. I was even coached to do so myself by a Senior Corporal of a major metropolitan department. But I decided to do it the honest and hard way, just get an RA degree…many officers submitted before the deadline, thus abuse of the system lead to this rule change. Since I work at the Federal Level, this has not affected me, however I do plan on making a change sooner or later and this may be a factor in meeting qualifications. Many “online” degrees are suspect by police departments now because of the fraud (though legal) committed by so many, so I chose a brick and mortar school not known for their online program and it will be listed generically on my resume, if they ask, I’ll tell, but not volunteer because I don’t want to be ruled out due to the actions of some and ignorance of others.

As a student getting my NA credits recognized was difficult…….WHEN ASKING…..but when I did not ask, but simply listed my school on the application, the credits were accepted after being told 3 times that they would NOT be accepted. Again, they used that mysterious “big book” to determine if the school was legit. So if you differentiate between the two, you will force others to, but if you act like everything is okay, sometimes it will be, other times it won’t be, but either way, they will have decided on their own, you won’t have shot yourself in the foot.

My advice, get an RA degree if you can afford it and if it is available (this gives you a very slight leg up in some rare cases), but if you can’t or it isn’t don’t sweat the NA degree unless you are going for professional licensing or something. Also, if you start a degree at a school, stick with it, do not change schools, this goes for RA or NA schools. RA to RA transfers are easier than NA to RA transfers, but not as easy as NA to NA transfers or RA to NA transfers. However, even in some of the best case scenarios, you lose time, money and credit.

When I hire, NA vs. RA is the same to me, I look at everything else in the interview, like how you dress, act, eye contact, quality and presentation of resume, your speech, your truthfulness, etc. The degree is a blurb on paper to me, and I'll hire someone with a degree faster than someone without, but RA vs. NA has no real weight in our world.....small though it may be.........compared to "online" vs. traditional. Though again, it has never once come down to education.....there's so much else going on.

-whew-………..I’m done...........sorry it got long winded.

 

DL/NA Lepers

My experience is entirely different. I worked as a Self-Employed Consulting Engineer in California - Silicon Valley Electronics Industry - for more than 16 years. I headed my own small group of Engineers and Technologists. We did mostly developmental electronics design engineering, but one auxiliary service I offered was the staffing up of the Engineering Departments of "startups" in that critical phase just past garage operation but before the companies were big enough for a real HR department. Twice or three times a year I would make a two-week tour of target universites in the West Coast looking to recruit engineers and technologists and some non-technical support staff. Between recruiting trips, I would try to fill job openings for my clients from a big stack of experienced applicant resumes.

The talent level was so high, and the attractions of Silicon Valley Startups were so great, that we could afford to throw out any resume that contained anything other than RA degrees ( or the foreign counterpart). Any hint of NA - or even worse "California Approved" degrees - meant the resume was instantly tossed - not worth a second glance. (The only DETC exception I allowed was Grantham College's BSEET - and even then there had to be a very good reasons for the choice of school). DL Bachelor's degrees even from RA schools were booted unless there was a very persuasive reason. DL Master's degrees may or may not be acceptable depending whether it was a natural progression from a respected school, or some kind of discreditable attempt to get a quickie Master's. DL PhDs were deeply suspect and normally didn't make the cut - since we could recruit straight out of Berkeley, Stanford, Santa Clara.

It could be some "gems" among the applicants were dismissed because of the humiliating NA/DL degree in their resume, but overall I think the requirement for an RA degree was a good, accurate, and cheap discernment tool. Saved a lot of time and money... Existence of an NA or California Approved degree on a resume was sure evidence of an applicant's bad judgment, if nothing else - the script equivalent of orange hair, a pin through their nose and visible misspelled tattoos.

I believe the same kind of competitive pressure exists in a high-education and high-stakes industries - from electronics to pharmaceuticals. In this "real world" Non-RA degrees are dismissed outright - direct to the dump.

In short, there are many non-competitive job situatations in non-competitive industries where Managers and HR staff don't know and/or don't care about the difference between RA and NA, and the DL aspect of the degree can be hidden or ignored. However, in competitive situations everything counts: B&M vs DL, RA vs NA, low school reputation vs high school reputation.

And, this is all even before the resume is examined for all the other attributes that make or break a job applicant...

Today, I'd be a little more lax about DL Master's degrees in Engineering from RA schools. I might even get one myself.

Like it or not - that's the way it is in competitive job situations. My advice to job seekers is: Don't get caught with the embarrassment of a bogus degree, or a substandard NA degree. It has "loser" written all over it. Be very carefull about DL degrees.

 

Nice write-up friendorfoe. Well said.

 

I think that this is an interesting observation. Do NA degrees from B&M schools (like Gibbs College or ITT Tech) have more acceptance in business than DETC schools? Or, for that matter, online RA schools?

 

A minor correction regarding CPA certification in Texas. RULE §511.57 states:

(c) The board will accept not fewer than 30 passing semester hours of accounting courses without repeat from the courses listed below. The courses must meet the board's standards by containing sufficient business knowledge and application to be useful to candidates taking the Uniform CPA Examination. A recognized educational institution must have accepted the courses for purposes of obtaining a baccalaureate degree or its equivalent, and they must be shown on an official transcript. At least 15 of these hours must result from physical attendance at classes meeting regularly on the campus of the transcript-issuing institution.

Otherwise, in my opinion, you bring up a number of excellent points concerning the relationship between education and employment.

 

"I think that this is an interesting observation. Do NA degrees from B&M schools (like Gibbs College or ITT Tech) have more acceptance in business than DETC schools? Or, for that matter, online RA schools?"

Not in the area I live in (northern VA), many of the larger companies in this area specify RA degrees, one example is my employer, Northrop Grumman. I applied for several positions before landing this one and have noticed that by "accredited" they usually mean regionally.

I am not downplaying the value of an NA degree because that argument has been worn into the ground 20 times over on this site as well as degree discussion; just stating an observation having applied to several large companies in Northern VA.

 

friendorfoe and kalos

you both offer good insight from within.

Kalos

obviously the jobs that you recruited for where elite jobs and you had to have high standards. which is understandable..... Buts Its like your compareing apples and oranges..

Most people who seek NA degree's are not "losers" as you like to think. I would think one who seeks to better himself would be praised not slandered

NA/DL serves its purpose. It will open doors that otherwise would shut and its nothing to be ashamed of.

Without NA/DL my wife would not have the job that she has today. She'd be working in the low skilled service sector making a little bit more than minimum wage... Now she's a computer aided drafter making a respectable income.. and to call someone like that a loser just shows your pompous attitude

 

Kalos:

I really take offense to this statement,"Existence of an NA or California Approved degree on a resume was sure evidence of an applicant's bad judgment, if nothing else - the script equivalent of orange hair, a pin through their nose and visible misspelled tattoos."
I have neither orange hair or a pin in my nose nor any misspelled tatoos. But, I do have an NA degree and have no hair and I would believe, at age 70, I'm many years your senior. I also have a lifetime of the "experience" that's required for most positions in the electrical and electronics field. I do not think I used bad judgement by obtaining an NA degree.

Bill

 

Kalos:
The possesion of an NA/DL degree is not humiliating to me, and
as a footnote to my last post, I have searched this board and can not find any credentials that say you are expert on RA vs NA, B&M vs DL degrees.
In addition, I have posted my credentials within my profile.

Bill

 

I can't think of any reasons why someone would feel like a loser or humiliated because they'd earned an NA degree.

I can, on the other hand, think of a few reasons (none of which are complimentary) why an anonymous poster would constantly use "put downs" in his/her postings regarding NA degree holders.

You(*) are not that cool.

*You know who you are

 

Ha!


Abner

 

Friendorfoe,

Thanks for providing us with your experiences, perceptions and opinions. It was very interesting to review your feedback.

Some comments:

1) It is important to note that your experiences are within the context of a "quasi government agency". We know from feedback of some posters who are employed by the federal government that DETC degrees have met their needs for obtaining their position or for promotions. I believe that in such instances a DETC degree may be a viable means of meeting criteria for specific federal and state jobs. HOWEVER, one always needs to make certain that a DETC degree will suffice because there are governmental employment situations that specifically require an RA degree.

2) In a number of work sectors such as major corporations, the school where one obtained their degree, lets say an MBA, is generally a major issue that is factored into hiring decisions. In fact these corporations generally seek applicants from mainstream RA schools with a specific preference for graduates from highly regarded RA degree programs. In such scenarios one who presents with a DETC degree will most probably not be perceived as a viable contender.

3) Within the context of hiring faculty in academia, one will not even be considered if they do not possess an RA doctorate.

4) Licensing requirements such as in Psychology clearly require RA degrees in order to be eligible to practice. Similar requirements may be required for other fields requiring licensing or certifications so once again it is essential that the applicant makes certain that a DETC degree will enable them to achieve their objectives. If they don't they will be placing their careers at risk and derailment.

5) Your comment regarding not asking about the acceptability of one's NA degree in order to get it approved on a job raises a red flag. If the written criteria specifically require an RA degree one better explore this matter very carefully prior to thinking that If "I" remain quiet and inconspicuous it will pass muster. In fact if one does not possess the required degree in such situations one should first obtain a written statement from their HR department specifically indicating that their NA degree will be acceptable rather than rely on chance and potential problems down the line.

6) So, as you have noted, is a degree of very little significance relative to the other factors such as ones experience and the way they dress when being considered for employment? I don't believe that any such generalized statements can be made because each situation needs to be approached differently. The key is that the prospective job applicant has to very carefully explore the bottomline that applies to their situation. No general rules apply ONLY that which is required by the those doing the hiring.

 

Interesting you should ask this, I would say that overall in my facility a graduate from ITT Tech or the like would have a leg up on the distance learning graduate RA or NA due to the hands on skill they teach concerning technology. If you majored in business, than it would probably be a lot like a DL degree and really wouldn't matter.

Kalos, I've read your posts, but I haven't seen anything but anecdotal evidence, were you meeting industry licensing standards? What were they? What kind of jobs did you recruit for? Phone technicians or CEOs? Why were RA's tossed? Were you an outside advisor or recruiter? Contractor? You yourself admit the limited value of a DL degree, and you stated that the reputation of the school was a factor. If a recruiter had such tough standards as yours, a DL degree RA or NA wouldn't have cut it....at least if what you are saying is true. (not an attack, genuinely curious).

FLA.............You got me. I didn't realize the standards were different. I got my information from a CPA, who has probably been a CPA longer than I've been breathing. I don't know if his memory was wrong or if the standards changed, but at least you got the correct information for everyone. The point of course being that a DL degree wouldn't get you there.

The whole point of the thread, and I challenge anyone to disagree is......................drum roll please.................


An instance where RA vs NA will become an issue is far less likely than an instance where DL vs. "traditional" degrees.....except in unique cases.

Again, this isn't hard and fast, nothing is, I'm just pointing out that a DL degree is considered sub-standard by many already, just like an NA degree is, just like a non-AACSB degree is in business or a non ABA degree in law, just like a Harvard degree will beat out a UT degree..........etc. There's always someone bigger, better, etc. The point is a degree is just the cherry on top of a 21 layer cake.

 

These were always jobs in the Electronics Industry. None required licenses - though a PE was sometimes useful for dealing with agencies such as UL. 90% of the jobs I recruited for were in the Engineering Department of electronics companies - mostly Engineers, Technologists, or Technicians. Sometimes non-technical staffers for HR, etc. For many high-end job postings, the Master's is effectively the minimum entry requirement because many applicants had a Master's and there was no advantage in hiring anyone with less. I was an "outside recruiter" but I was primarily a design engineer - only doing recruiting until they got big enough to have a dedicated HR deprtment. Often I had the consulting/recruiting contract with the same company for many years.

I believe the results would be the same in any competitive industry: Holders of NA degrees are at a serious disadvantage compared to RA degrees. The more competitive and "knowledge-intensive" the field - the bigger the differential. A DL degree from an RA institution is somewhere in the middle - though if it can be explained adequately - eg from Stanford - the DL degree at the Master's level may be an advantage. Depends on the field, the school, the candidate's life situation, etc.

The point is - don't get an NA degree if there are RA options. And there are almost always RA options.

Kalos Orisate, BESc, MBA, PE

 

Kalos;

How did you go about telling the difference between a DL and "butt-in-the-seat" RA degree from institutions that offer both? The transcripts don't generally say Distance Bachelor of Science.

Also, did you check the accreditation status of every school mentioned on a resume or did you just assume "I never heard of them - so they suck"?

Further, do you believe that a "butt-in-the-seat" degree from East Podunk State is better than a DL from one of the elites? ie: are you saying that my in-the-seat MBA from Webster is better than say a DL from UNC-Chapel Hill or Duke? Do you feel that it is better to get an "in-the-seat" degree from a bottom feeder tier-4 than to get a DL degree from one of the major players?

You see, I've studied music at Coastal Carolina University for several years now. I'm thinking that a master of music from Boston University will have MUCH more utility in "the real world" than the equivalent from Coastal Carolina. The Boston MM is DL...

 

Again there are trade offs.

RA vs. NA

"butt-in-seat" vs. Online

Recognized school vs. unrecognized school

etc.

 

Also speaking as someone who hires, it is my opinion that the degree becomes less and less important the more experience the applicant has. There are certainly many professions that require certain minimal educational standards, but once you get ten years or more in the job market, experience carries a heavier weight in the hiring decisions.

 

I'd take issue with this statement. Many students have very good reasons for transferring. If your circumstances change, and especially if you decide to change your course of study, you shouldn't feel trapped at a particular school. For me, transferring to a new school was like a fresh start - I left behind the horrid GPA I had accumulated in a curriculum I wasn't cut out for, and I was able to concentrate on doing well in my new program.

Making the decision to change schools is not something to be taken lightly, but it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, either. I wouldn't have my degree now if I hadn't transferred.