CHE Article on Education Schools--Who Needs an Ed.D?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Michael Nunn, Jun 1, 2006.

Loading...
  1. Michael Nunn

    Michael Nunn New Member

    "Education schools are often viewed as anything but responsible. As president of this country's most prestigious one, Mr. Levine has heard his share of complaints: Why do they have such low admissions standards? Why don't they help public schools? Why do they focus less on teaching than on research?"

    http://chronicle.com/free/v52/i05/05a02001.htm
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2006
  2. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    And here I am planning to get a PhD in Education. At least it's in International Education and not one of those programs for K-12 administrators like those Dr. Levine is deriding.

    -=Steve=-
     
  3. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    Isn't Dr. Levine that same Columbia U ed prof who last year stirred up a bunch of controversy by calling the EdD a deep dive straight for the bottom?
     
  4. Daniel Luechtefeld

    Daniel Luechtefeld New Member

    Great article.

    Doctorates are supposed to be *research* degrees, not terminal degrees for practioners of applied arts and sciences. Elsewhere in the non-academic world, PhDs serve in specialty positions under the leadership of MBA/MPA-level leaders. As Churchill said, experts should be on tap, not on top. Why is a dissertation-based Ed.D considered to be of more utility than a capstone project-based MBA or MPA with an Educational Leadership specialization? It's worth noting that MDs require an MPH, MPA, or MBA to move into leadership positions, not a PhD.

    From my POV Dr. Levine's assertions about the drive for doctorates increasingly holds true for areas outside education administration. We'd do well to shut down more than a few doctoral programs, strengthen master's programs, and make the master's the sine qua non of leadership positions.
     
  5. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    What is this?
     
  6. simon

    simon New Member

    Dr. Levine may be correct in his assessment of the state of affairs of Ed.D programs. However, he fails to note that the lowered admission standards into these degree programs as well as standards for graduation are not specific to doctoral level education but to doctoral programs in other subject areas as well. For instance, admission standards to a significant number of doctoral programs in Psychology (especially the Psy.D) have been lowered to the point whereby one can gain admission with a relatively low GPA, no standardized admission tests (ie, GRE, MAT), and the production of a doctoral "research project, in lieu of a dissertation, that is not commensurate with the original scholarly research requirements for the Ph.D.

    In addition it should be noted that by not implementing major changes in the Ed.D program at Columbia University, or eliminating it entirely, Dr. Levine's global assertations lose credibility in spite of his rationale for not initiating such changes.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 3, 2006
  7. Daniel Luechtefeld

    Daniel Luechtefeld New Member

    It's what Dr. Levine prescribed as the antidote to the Ed.D.
     
  8. simon

    simon New Member

    There is another major issue that arises from Dr. Levine's "revelatory" assertions. According to the biographical data that accompanied the Chronicle's article, Dr. Levine earns over $300,000 a year with a doctorate in Sociology. Not bad for a doctoral degee in Sociology. Let's face it, since he is reviewing the relevance of the Ed.D curriculum why not examine the relevance to society of the curriculums in such fields as Sociology. As we have observed during the past forty years, a number of doctoral practitioners in this discipline have "contributed" highly questionable and at times spurious socio-political theories that have resulted in all sorts of governmental policy changes with very poor outcomes. Just an observation.
     
  9. Daniel Luechtefeld

    Daniel Luechtefeld New Member

    For example?
     
  10. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    Dr. Levine can take a flying leap if he thinks he is going to totally corrupt and even bastardize the MBA degree by inventing this assininity called the MBA in Educational Leadership!
     
  11. Daniel Luechtefeld

    Daniel Luechtefeld New Member

    Ted, you didn't read the article. "MBA" was the term *I* used to distill what he was prescribing - a curriculum that focused on preparing educators to administer educational organizations by giving them real-world management skills. Operations, finance, managerial accounting, MIS, organizational behavior, perhaps even marketing.

    After all, the public sector - and school districts in particular - are criticized all the time for not running their enterprises in a more efficient, more "businesslike" manner (something that Dr. Levine clearly laments).

    Moreover, *for-profit* educational institutions are increasingly prominent. Perhaps an MBA focusing on the requirements of administering for-profit education systems isn't so far fetched.

    Having said that, I think an MPA derivative is the best vehicle for what he prescribes.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 3, 2006
  12. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    I would still prefer that Educational Leadership and Education Management be left over in the education departments and schools, with the awards of MEd and EdD.
     
  13. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    While I agree, I think it's a little late to try to defend the chastity of the MBA degree -- you can get them in anything these days. However, a MPA in Educational Leadership that is designed for principals and superintendants makes sense to me.

    -=Steve=-
     
  14. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    I'm not sure I would agree with even the MPA in Educational Leadership/Education Management because the Master of Public Administration is supposedly designed to train one to manage public agencies, whereas schools can be either public or private. Likewise, my disagreement with the MBA in Educational Leadership/Education Management is because the Master of Business Administration is supposed to train one to manage private businesses and, of course, schools can be either private or public. Best to train future managers of educational enterprises, public and private alike, over in the education departments and schools. If need be, they can always rent a few business profs until they've got enough EdD's in Education Management to take over the hard courses.
     
  15. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    Oh, dear! Like what sort of "anything" MBAs can one get?
     
  16. Daniel Luechtefeld

    Daniel Luechtefeld New Member

    MBA in Public Agency Management:
    http://www.csulb.edu/colleges/cba/mba/programs/mpam/

    MBA in Crisis & Emergency Management:
    http://www.fauexecutiveprograms.com/ApplicationFiles/web/WebFrame.cfm?web_id=865

    MBA in Environmental Business Management:
    http://www.fauexecutiveprograms.com/ApplicationFiles/web/WebFrame.cfm?web_id=871

    MBA in Sustainable Enterprise, aka "Green MBA":
    http://greenmba.com/

    All are regionally-accredited.
     
  17. siersema

    siersema Active Member

    Might as well throw in these;

    Applied Computer Science, Computer and Information Security, Criminal Justice, Homeland Security, Health Care Administration, and more.. all from NCU.

    http://www.ncu.edu/info.asp?i=26

    I myself am considering some of the 'IT' related MBA's since they have more IT than Business in them.
     
  18. simon

    simon New Member

    An example? Busing minority students long distances to schools in caucasian neighbors with the notion that this would provide these students with an education equivalent to mainstream students. This "brainstorm" emanated from an academician, a Sociologist, who subsequently admitted that his theory (it was never field tested prior to implementation) failed abysmally. In fact, the majority of minority students did not wish to be bused out of their communities and resented this intrusion on their lives.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 3, 2006
  19. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    The vast majority of schools and school systems are public, so I'd think most people would be interested in an MPA. Even the private ones are mostly non-profit, and respond to pressures more akin to the public sector than the private one.

    But if you like, Foerster-Heiks University can have a MS or MEd in Educational Leadership. :)

    -=Steve=-
     
  20. Daniel Luechtefeld

    Daniel Luechtefeld New Member

    1. You neglected to name the sociologist.

    2. That busing is almost universally regarded today as a failure is due in large part to the demographic research of U of Chicago *sociologist* James Coleman.

    (Having grown up in suburban St. Louis, attending a district to which black students were bused, I can tell you that busing was widely advocated at the time in circles that extended *well* beyond sociologists, right up to the entirety of the US Supreme Court. Perhaps one of the resident law students can provides some context vis-a-vis Swann v. Charlotte-Mecklenburg or any one of its lower court antecedents).

    So enough of the broadside against sociologists.
     

Share This Page