Heated email exchange with Education Direct

About a year ago, I finished the "Electrician" Career Diploma program from "Education Direct" (before it became Penn Foster Career School) and received a very cheap looking Career Diploma, it had no seal or anything that gave it the appearance of being a quality learning experience. I emailed Connie Dempsey at Education Direct and told her how disappointed I was with this. She told me in so many words its the name of the school thats important and not the look of the diploma. I emailed her a second time and further expressed my disappointment in her response and told her I would not be enrolling in anymore programs at Education Direct. On a side note, I remember when Education Direct used to be ICS, International Career School, etc. and they advertised on matchbooks. They also sent out mailings with these S&H Greenstamp looking things you would put on the box and send in to enroll in a program. In my opinion, very gimmicky, when Education Direct stopped advertising that way, and had a very professional website, I decided to enroll in the Electrician program. I liked the electrician materials they sent, but a little dated, for instance, old black and white pictures in the materials from around the 70's and 80's. Recently, I noticed they changed their name to Penn Foster Career School which seems to be an improvement over the generic sounding "Education Direct". My guess is the name Penn Foster is derived from Penn = Pennsylvania (originating in Scranton, PA) and Foster = Thomas J. Foster, developer of the distance-learning method for coal miners. Just a hunch. Recently, I discovered Penn Foster Career School changed to Penn Foster College and the added Arizona address and lic. Not sure if this was a merger or ?

Can anyone tell me about the quality and age of the materials for the engineering degree programs?

Jeff

 

No personal experience with Penn Foster. Just wanted to make sure you were aware of the following points:

(1) Penn Foster's AS degrees are really "engineering technology" degrees, not "engineering" degrees.
(2) Penn Foster's AS degrees are not ABET-accredited, in either engineering or engineering technology.

The Penn Foster AS degree may still be worthwhile for you; but you should be aware of the potential limitations for pursuing additional degrees or certifications. The Penn Foster AS degree is not the best choice if your ultimate goal is a BS degree, NICET technician/technologist certification, or a state Professional Engineer's license.

 

Penn Foster Associate Degree in Engineering

I am now taking the first semester of the four semesters ( Associate Degree in Civil Engineering Technology.

I cannot compare but I can tell you about my experience so far.

I am now doing the Technical Mathematics courses from Basic Algebra to Logarithms and the text is written by K. Rieger who holds an M.S. presumably in Science or Mathematics. The texts are clear with plenty of solved problems and exercices with answers. At the end of the text ( about 70 pages) you submit the answers to 20 multiple choice questions.

I have had the opportunity to ask by e-mail for an explanation and within 24 hours ( weekdays, not weekend ) I got a detailed answer. The person responding has a B.S.M.E. from Pennsylvania State University.

I am satisfied so far ; I have checked a few community colleges which offer the Associate Degree in Civil Engineering Technology ( Block and Mortar buildings on campus ) and the courses descriptions have practically the same content and number of credits.

Do your own research and draw your own conclusions.

 

BS Degree in Engineering online ONLY??

I spent all day trying to find an accredited program offering a bachelor degree in either electrical or mechanical engineering online ONLY? I simply do not have the time or availability to move somewhere to attend a school or take evening classes. I don't see anything out there available. Does anyone know of anything?

Jeff

 

Were you able to pass your state license exam and start working as an electrician after completing the program? What did you do for practical exercises?

I have a friend taking the Small Engine Repair course. The materials look like they are from the late 80s/early 90's. However, small engines haven't really changed since then. The sample diploma that is shown in the pamphlets looks very nice however.

 

No Lic Exam in my state.

In Pennsylvania, the state doesn't require lic for electricians or plumbers. The cities of Pittsburgh and Philly do though, which are similiar too other state lic requirements.

The electrician program wasn't just residential, it had some industrial stuff, ac dc motors, hvac controls, etc...

I was interested in the small engine course myself, tell you what, did you by any chance save the pdf files for the course, I have all my pdf files for the electrician courses, I keep as a reference. Wouldn't mind getting my hands on the small engine pdf for reference materials...

Jeff
jfls40 at the ya hoo

 

4-year engineering degree ONLINE

Have you checked the Nationally Accredited 4-year degree in Engineering , not Engineering Technology, given by CNUAS :

www.cnuas.edu

Send for information . Let us know your opinion !

 

Sticker Shock! CNUA

It looks like a quality program, more so than Penn Foster or one of the DETC schools, but I'm paying for schooling out of my own pocket, not mommy and daddys, and I have a family to feed. If only I could turn back time and do things when I was younger.

Jeff

 

Re: BS Degree in Engineering online ONLY??

The "gold standard" for engineering or engineering technology programs is accreditation by ABET. However, ABET has strict requirements for laboratory work as part of the curriculum. ABET will not accredit fully online programs, because they feel that some supervised hands-on experience is essential.

The University of North Dakota may come closest. They offer genuine ABET-accredited engineering degrees through distance learning, but you have to visit the campus for one or two weeks in the summer for a heavy dose of lab work.

The CNU program is nationally (DETC) accredited, but it is not regionally accredited or ABET-accredited. Most employers, graduate schools, and state engineering boards in traditional engineering fields will prefer or require ABET degrees, and will discriminate against non-ABET degrees.

There are some situations where a CNU BS degree would be automatically rejected. On the other hand, there are also some situations where it might prove to be acceptable. Same goes for the Penn Foster AS degree. The point is simply that you should be aware of the potential limitations before investing in a non-ABET engineering or technology degree.

 

Re: Sticker Shock! CNUA

I get the impression you have issues other than whether Penn Foster is a worthwhile program or not.

A couple of points:

It doesn't really matter what the degree looks like. An employer isn't going to look at it, just your transcripts.

If you have a problem with an NA degree, don't go to an NA school.

Most adult learners don't have "mommy or daddy" to pay for their classes, either. They have to apply for financial aid.

IMO, Penn Foster doesn't deserve the bad rap you're trying to give it. It has come a long way since the days when it went by another name and advertised on matchbooks. There are plenty of RA schools which will accept an AS degree from Penn Foster in direct transfer to a bachelors program.

BTW, there are a very select few totally online engineering degrees available. I once looked at engineering and decided to do something else because most engineering degrees available at a distance are only engineering technology programs.

 

Here is what Caldog said :

Well ,Caldog , you must know , to get the facts straight, that Penn Foster AS degrees in Technology ALSO requires you to spend 11 days at the labs of a Pennsylvania RA university lab in order to receive the Associate degree.

I also would like , Caldog, where you get the statistics to trumpet that MOST employers would not accept a non-ABET engineering degree or a non-ABET technology degree. Tell us WHERE you got these employers statistics.

 

Here is what Caldog said :

Well ,Caldog , you must know , to get the facts straight, that Penn Foster AS degrees in Technology ALSO requires you to spend 11 days at the labs of a Pennsylvania RA university lab in order to receive the Associate degree.

I also would like , Caldog, where you get the statistics to trumpet that MOST employers would not accept a non-ABET engineering degree or a non-ABET technology degree. Tell us WHERE you got these employers statistics.

 

I don't know of anywhere that keeps track of statistics like this. It sounds like an interesting research topic for an education/engineering management grad student.

However, all the job adverts I have ever seen in Florida that required an engineer have all stated "degree from an ABET-accredited institution", or the more subtle, "must be eligible to take the EIT or PE exam" (which for most states means you need an ABET degree.) This is particularly true for federal government jobs.

 

Double EE vs ET

No doubt there is a difference between an Engineering and
Engineering Technology degree. alot of people on these boards
slam the Engineering Technology programs. why I don't know

A BSEE/ASEE does give you more options but it doesn't guarenntee you a higher salary.

An Engineering Technology degree program maynot be the Gold standard as far education and recognition (PE Boards) but it does prepares you for a career in electronics, telecommunications, electrical power, computers and more.


A BSEE/ASEE Requires more theory type courses such as physics an calculas

While a BSET/ASSET has more practical introduction to real-world instruments and technology.

IMO BSET/ASSET prepares you for a JOB while a BSEE prepares you take State Board PE exams.

I work in the telecommunications field and from my experince people with the double EE require more OJT (on the job training). than the person with an ET when they first start.

 

Read my post again. I said that most employers will "prefer or require" ABET degrees. I did not say that most employers would reject non-ABET degrees. To be more specific:

(1) Some employers will require ABET degrees, and will automatically reject non-ABET degrees. This is probably true only for a minority of cases, particularly in government jobs, or in private-sector jobs requiring licensure.

(2) Some employers will prefer applicants with ABET degrees, but will consider, and in some cases hire, applicants with non-ABET degrees. This is probably true in a majority of cases.

(3) Some employers will not care at all whether an applicant has an ABET or non-ABET degree. This is probably true only for a minority of cases, particularly when an applicant has extensive, proven work experience.

In my experience, most engineering employers fall into category (1) or (2): they will either prefer or require applicants with ABET degrees. However, it is still possible for applicants with non-ABET degrees to get jobs under categories (2) and (3).

I don't have any statistics to back up these assertions, and I doubt that any are available. However, it would be possible to show that ABET degrees are preferred or required by state engineering boards, NICET certification programs, and many academic degree programs. The private sector is no different.

 

11-day Resident Laboratory Training

Thank you , Caldog, for your fine and measured response to the ABET and non-ABET aspect.

However, you did not raise the 11-day Resident Laboratory Training now provided and REQUIRED by PennFoster at Penn State University in order to get the AS degree in all its Technology programs. Does it not compare with North Dakota University ?

Yes, I have read on some internet career boards and one particularly on Civil Engineering that they require the PE exam but in some States to pass the PE exam you do not need necessarily a BSEE or ASEE as long as you have college or university training PLUS experience in the field you are eligible to write the PE exam.

Thanks Edowave for your personal views on this question. Yes, Technology degrees give you more real-word hands-on than most EE programs.

 

Re: 11-day Resident Laboratory Training

It's hard to find information about the Resident Lab requirement at the Penn Foster website. In fact, the home pages for the civil, mechanical, and electrical technology programs still say "no classroom needed!" However, the FAQ page states:

I'm impressed that Penn Foster has a lab requirement. I agree that it is similar, in principle, to the UND lab requirement (although the UND labs are part of an ABET engineering BS program, while the Penn Foster labs are part of a non-ABET technology AS program).

I see two possible downsides, though. First, most people (like me) will not realize that a non-ABET distance-learning school (like Penn Foster) has a lab requirement. So ideally, Penn Foster should still pursue ABET accreditation, if this is possible for a DETC school. Second, the FAQs imply that students can be exempted from the lab requirement if they have sufficient experience. So there seems to be a loophole, though I don't know how large it is in practice.

 

Re: Double EE vs ET

There are plenty of good jobs for engineering technology grads. And it is probably true that they hit the ground running, with less OJT than for engineering grads. Starting salaries are probably not too different.

The upside to the engineering degree is that in the long run, it offers more opportunities for advancement and promotion. Engineering degree holders are more likely to get into MS and MBA programs, obtain PE licenses, and reach senior technical and managerial positions than engineering technology degree holders.

It's certainly possible to advance in your career with a technology degree; I have no doubt that some technology grads do get graduate degrees, PE licenses, and promotions. However, the odds are better with an engineering degree.

 

Did I miss something? Where's this "heated email exchange"?

My degree from Ashworth isn't the nicest degree either but my employer didn't ask to see it. It's disappointing but not the end of the world.

I haven't attended Penn Foster but it looks like they are making some pretty great improvements (especially changing the name).

 

Name change

Changing the name from "Education Direct" to "Penn Foster" is a BIG improvement. When I first heard Education Direct, I thought of some fly-by-night sales pitch...

Let's hope they stick with Penn Foster College and don't change again, I might just enroll in one of their degree programs. When I started this thread, I was mentioning my heated exchange because in so many words I told the director at the school the diploma looked cheesy, the name sounded generic and maybe it got them to thinking, hence the name change. I'll give myself credit for that.

Jeff