LSAT prep?

Hi everyone. I have been debating for a bit and think that I've decided to make a run for law school. I have a couple of hurdles and questions for anyone who knows about this topic.

First, my plan is to attend a brick & mortar school - the closest to where I live is Gonzaga in Spokane.

I was previously accepted to start in 2001 but didn't end up going due to an incredible job offer - and my kids were still pretty young. I found out today that my LSAT score from 2000 will be purged in June.

My choice is to apply now for this fall - but I think it is getting too late. If I went this year I would probably have to take a leave of absence from work for a year - and then go parttime for the next several years. This seems to be the least likely situation as I have a 6th, 9th and 11th grade kids.

My other option is to retake the LSAT and plan to apply and go in 3 years. By then I will have one child left at home and it would be a lot easier. So my question then - is about the LSAT prep. I got in the mid 150's when I took it for the first time. I had been out school at that point for 9 years. My prep for that was to get a study guide and cd and do practice tests.

Since then I've completed a Masters Degree - not that it will help on the test...but I'm thinking that a prep course might be helpful to get my score bumped up as I think I will need all the added help I can get. By the time I will enter law school with this plan I will be 44 - so I will be ancient I'm sure, compared to many of the other people in the class. I will have 20 years of work experience in criminal justice so that might add a few points.

Any ideas on a good course to take?

 

Is there a specific reason you want to attend a brick-and-mortar law school rather than earning the degree via distance education? Are distance education law degree not accepted by the American Bar Association?

If you are intent upon a brick-and-mortar law school, perhaps waiting until your children graduate from high school and you have more time to put into your education.

 

In Washington State

DL Law School degrees are not accepted. I would not be able to sit for the bar here - I want to work in either Criminal Prosecution or in Public Interest law and will need an accredited program. My thinking at this point is to take a prep course in order to raise my LSAT score - as it is going to be invalid in June - with the intent of starting ls in 3 years or so.

I did my Masters through a DL program - Norwich University, which included an onsite residency. I really enjoyed it. If DL law schools were accepted/accredited etc I would probably go that route.

 

Kaplan seems to be the company that most of my classmates swear by. I personally don't think they are worth the money at 2k a pop. In your situation it might even be a bigger waste. You already have the ability to score in the mid 150s which will most likely put you past Gonzaga's median. This plus your life experience will make you an auto admit. Also most of the areas that you can improve upon in the LSAT are easily learned from prep books. If you pick up the Logic Games Bible and the Princeton Review for the LSAT those should give you the skills needed to ace the games and logic reasoning sections. A good website for the current trends in LSAT prep is www.lawschooldiscussion.com. There are plenty of soon to be law students looking for the "edge" on the competition there. One more thing, there are plenty of non-traditional students in my class. Law is one of fields that attracts people looking for a career change in mid-life. So I assure you that you will not be alone.

 

Kaplan Test Prep www.kaptest.com
Princeton Review www.princetonreview.com
LSAT Center www.lsat-center.com
LSAT Intensive Review www.prepmaster.com
More http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=ush2mail&ei=UTF-8&p=LSAT+Prep

 

Thanks very much!

For your replies and advice. I've been a bit unsure about whether to go the self-study route again or do a structured program. I certainly don't want to spend money I don't need to - but I guess I'm kind of nervous that I won't do as well - of course I'd rather do better - on the LSAT the second time around.

I'll get some of those self-study materials and work on those for a while and see how the practice tests go.

 

Re: Thanks very much!

Well, of the possibilities I looked at:

(1) LSAT Center's prep courses seem to be exclusively online.
(2) Kaplan and Princeton Review have both online and in-person courses; however, their closest locations seem to be in Seattle and, with you being in Eastern Washington, 300+ miles can be a bit of a drive. Trust me, I lived in Seattle for fifteen years before moving to Ohio five years ago, and the drive to Spokane or Pullman can be an all-day proposition.
(3) LSAT Intensive Review does offer weekend courses two weeks before each offering of the LSAT and one of their seminar locations is the Hilton Garden Inn, 9015 W. SR-2, Spokane, WA, ph. 509.244.5866.

 

$$$

I would not waste my money on any LSAT prep course. I don't care what they say; you don't need it.

Use the examples the LSAT people send you when you register to make sure that you understand the form the questions take. Then take it.

A score in the mid 150s should satisfy most non top tier ABA schools so long as your undergrad GPA is above about 3.3 or so. Since you've completed a Master's degree, I agree that Gonzaga will be thrilled to get you.

Now. Should you GO to Gonzaga?

I have worked with probably a half dozen Gonzaga law grads. Every last one was brighter than the average lawyer and, I thought, had a better grasp of the importance of law in society and their duties to society than most. I personally think very, very highly of the school.

But it's expensive. Really, really expensive. If you intend to remain in the Inland Empire, you may find it hard to pay the degree off. So apply and dicker over financial aid.

I think Gonzaga has both a three year day and four year evening program? I'd go for the full time program but in the end, that's more expensive because you really cannot work. Another reason to dicker like mad. If they want you, they'll make it possible.

Last thought: Consider applying to the University of Washington and try to get one of the new Gates Scholarships for people intending a career in public service. If you can manage it, you'll end up with very little debt and the freedom to do exactly what you want to do.

And if you get it, you can go back to Gonzaga and say, "If you want me, THIS is what you have to match."

Good luck!

 

thanks

for your information. My undergrad gpa was 3.3 and my Masters of Justice Admin was a 4.0 w/honors. I hadn't thought about applying for any other schools than Gonzaga because of where I live - but it might be worth it to check into the Gates Scholarship - I hadn't heard of that opportunity. When I was accepted in 2000 for Gonzaga (LSAT mid 150's and 3.3 but no Masters) I was offered $7,000 I think per year.

Gonzaga does not have a night program any longer. I've checked on that. I would have to quit my job and go full time - or at least take a years leave of absence. Gonzaga said that the 2nd & 3rd year aren't so rigid as the first. I might be able to rearrange my schedule and work parttime if needed. Ultimately I would prefer just to quit work altogether and go - but will have to see if that's possible.

 

Ah! Sounds like Gonzaga DID want to recruit you. Very good.

There have been some changes in the legal education landscape that might affect you. The ABA is cracking down HARD on schools with lower first time Bar passage rates. Western State temporarily LOST its provisional approval last year; and Golden Gate and Whittier have both been placed on probation for low pass rates.

Also, the U.S. News rankings turn to a considerable extent on the median LSAT and ugpa of each entering class which data also are solid predictors for Bar success.

This means that many private regional schools are more anxious than ever to recruit highly qualified students who are likely to do well in law school and on the Bar exam. (The two things are closely connected.) Students can receive as much as a non needs based full tuition scholarship so long as they keep their grades up.

Gonzaga's web site mentions "merit scholarships" for exceptionally well qualified applicants. That's what they are referring to.

Bottom line? You MIGHT find that Gonzaga will end up being CHEAPER than UW!

Again, good luck!

 

do the schools

look at a persons family makeup etc when deciding on needs-based grants? For example if I have one child in college and one still at home in high school and quit working to go to school - thus bringing our income down significantly to just my husband's school teacher salary - does that have an impact do you think? I wonder how much help a financial aid officer would be in helping a prospective student decide WHEN the right time to go is. I could go in a year when my oldest son is graduated and have two left in school or I could wait 3 years until my middle child is in college - or (hardest of all as I really want to get started) wait until all my kids are out - which is in 6 years.

If I resign my job in the next year with the state to go to school I expect I would have about 20-25k I would get from deferred comp and leave buyout. I could use that to pay down debt so my husband's salary plus student loans could carry us - obviously the longer I wait the more I will have in deferred comp and hopefully less debt to deal with.

 

They do look at your family make-up to an extent. However, I doubt that you will get much if any need based grants. Most of the people that I know in similar situations as you (married w/kids and spouse working) are not getting need based grants. The only real way to know though is to fill out the FAFSA and talk to the financial aid department at the school you wish to appy for. They may have something that will help you out but the odds are against you. You will most likely have to rely on merit based aid and student loans. Of course with your achievements and scores the merit aid should cover a significant portion of your tuition.

 

I agree with c130nav. But don't put it off; law school isn't getting any cheaper and the more years you work as a lawyer, the easier it will be to pay off the student loans.

Also, if there's any way to avoid it, DON'T cash out the retirement accounts!

 

Re: thanks

If it were possible to get a new job in Seattle similar to the one you now have in Eastern Washington, Seattle University www.seattleu.edu has an night-time law school program.

 

OK, this is out there...

just a bit, but bear with me.

Have you heard that in Washington (and a few other states -- Vermont, Virginia -- seven total) that potential lawyers can "read the law" and take the bar w/out going to law school?

I tried to find another Washington-state specific article but wasn't able to locate it. Here's a good overview though.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0603/p13s01-lecs.html

Basically, one would apprentice oneself to a "mentor" lawyer, study and take the bar. It is conceivable (though hard) to do even while working another job. Or you could try to find someone who would pay you as a paralegal/assistant or some such so that you could learn "on-the-job". Allenfammom, you seem determined enough that you could do it.

Anyway, it's a neat bit of trivia even if you don't want to go this route. The article talks a bit about distance learning vs. ABA.

OK, here's an older Washington-specific article that even gives the name of a local lawyer who is in charge of the program. http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=1319344&date=19911125&query=%22washington+state+bar%22+reading+law

Good luck!

 

There's more

here's an article from the Washington State ABA site http://www.wsba.org/media/publications/barnews/archives/2000/jul-00-clerking.htm

Can you tell that I think getting around the ABA is fun?

 

Hi mbaonline

Actually, I did know about the "read the law" way to take the bar. Isn't it interesting that Washington won't accept DL law but will accept this other way. I talked to a local attorney about that route, a number of years ago now, and he said that it's pretty hard to do. I read up on it once and it was a pretty involved process I think - but I guess that where there is a will there is a way. I think that there is one attorney - or at least there used to be - locally that passed the bar in this fashion.

One of the draw backs - and yes I know I'm weird - my 16 year old son tells me this all the time...I have really always wanted to go through the experience/challenge of law school. I wasn't always the best student - high school gpa was 3.6 - and undergrad 3.3 - but as I've gotten older and "wiser" my ability to study/retain and "get" the material as well as my desire to be challenged intellectually has increased substantially.

But - the idea of creating substantial debt on top of my masters degree debt does give me pause - if there is a way to get to the end result that I want without the pain of paying for law school.
If I could continue to work and still do such a program it might be the best thing. I will definately look into it and will read the articles you linked. Thanks!

 

Actually...

I read the articles and got to thinking - when I applied for law school before the local prosecutor and one of the Superior Court Judges wrote letters of recommendations for me. At the time I was a Community Corrections Officer (parole/probation) and had been the Court Liaison for my unit for a number of years. Since then I promoted to an Administrative Hearings Officer position - which is why I didn't go to law school in 2001. The promotion was a pretty big one - if you know anything about state government pay scales- I jumped 8 pay ranges in this promotion, so I could hardly pass it up.

I wonder if the local prosecutor and judge would have the ability to hire me as a clerk in order to do this program. I am thinking that they may not as they have to work within their budgets. But I guess it wouldn't hurt to ask. I don't know many of the private attorney's locally - maybe one or two.

I requested the packet from the WSBA to look into this further...I'll keep you posted~

 

Side note correction:

WSBA is the Washinton State Bar Association. It is the agency of the State Supreme Court that regulates the practice of law (among other things).

WSBA is NOT part of, or affiliated with, the American Bar Association (ABA). One is a quasi-governmental agency and the other is a private organization.

 

Thanks for the correction.

Nosborne, as a side question, do you know...does New Mexico still allow "reading the law" for admission to the Bar?