? for those in Law Enforcement re Ashworth/Penn Foster & Kidney Failure

Hi All!

My fiancee is wanting to get a degree in Criminal Justice. He was previously a Correctional Officer at a prison and would like to either do that again, become a Police Officer or do something else along those lines.

He has been looking into the Associates Degree programs for Criminal Justice at Ashworth College and Penn Foster (previously Education Direct).

We have a few concerns:

1. Will police departments/prisons/etc. recognize a degree from either of these schools?

2. Is it REALLY that important to go to an RA school if you only plan to get an associates degree and not transfer on?

3. Is it really to his advantage to take one of these courses?

4. The reason we have been looking at these two schools is because he is currently unemployeed and I am working part time. We do not have the money to pay up front and dont want loans. Are these schools our only options?

Also, my fiancee is currently on disability because of Kidney Failure. Does this pose a problem for becoming employeed again in this field?

Thank you all so much for your responses! I Have been reading your posts and know there are alot of Law Enforcement personnel on this board, so any advice would be wonderful!

Thanks!

 

Hello sean_jessica05. I work in the CJ career field so I thought I might try to answer your questions.

1. Will police departments/prisons/etc. recognize a degree from either of these schools?

Many law enforcement agencies will accept credits/degrees from nationally accredited schools, however there are agencies that may not. It depends on the agency and location. The best thing to do is to check with the specific agency you are interested in to see if they accept degrees from nationally accredited schools.

2. Is it REALLY that important to go to an RA school if you only plan to get an associates degree and not transfer on?

Make sure that he does not plan to transfer. Often students reach their goal and build up academic confidence. Your fiancee may want to go further with his education after he gets his associates degree. We can never predict the future.
That said, a regionally accredited degree will have more transferability power than an NA degree. He may want to consider an RA program, which would really be recommended. Bruce, the Administrator here, has provided a detailed list of RA CJ programs here.

3. Is it really to his advantage to take one of these courses?

Yes. The CJ field is competitive and many law enforcement agencies require an associates degree for entry level positions.


4. The reason we have been looking at these two schools is because he is currently unemployeed and I am working part time. We do not have the money to pay up front and dont want loans. Are these schools our only options?

No. There are many RA schools that are affordable as well. Check out Bruce's list. One example is Fort Hays State University here. Also three more links :

http://www.cosc.edu/Forms/cps/index.cfm

http://www.tesc.edu/prospective/undergraduate/degree/bshus.php

https://www.excelsior.edu/portal/page?_pageid=57,55694&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL

Also, my fiancee is currently on disability because of Kidney Failure. Does this pose a problem for becoming employeed again in this field?

Yes. While he is on disability for kidney failure, no law enforcement agency will employ him for the position of police officer. Every law enforcement agency requires a police candidate be in good physical condition to ensure successful completion of basic training at the police academy. Additionally to endure the physical hardships during road patrol such as physical altercations ... and much worse, it is important to be in good physical health. If he fully recovers, he then would have an opportunity to apply to various agencies. He may want to consider employment as a police dispatcher/ telecommunicator instead or until/if he fully recovers.

Hope this helps a little.

Craig

 

1. Will police departments/prisons/etc. recognize a degree from either of these schools?

A.) Yes, most will. I would like to agree with cnovick that asking the individual dept. would be a good thing, but in my experience the HR personnel of a dept. cannot tell you the difference between GAAP (Generally Accepted Accrediting Practices) degrees that are NA (Nationally Accredited) or RA (Regionally Accredited) and just parrot the phrase “as long as they are accredited” or even “as long as they are regionally accredited” if for no other reason than they are simply too busy or have some knowledge, but not enough to understand what they are asking.

I recommend looking into which state he wants to become a LEO in and find the website for their particular licensing agency. For example in Texas it is the TCLEOSE people http://www.tcleose.state.tx.us/ who have guidelines on what they consider to be acceptable “furthering education”. In other words, this specific agency adopted a policy that all postsecondary learning institutions must be regionally accredited. Therefore several departments have since changed their standard that the postsecondary institution must be one that is recognized by TCELOSE (who incidentally is not an accrediting agency) who specify a regionally accredited degree. Now some larger departments like Dallas P.D. for example recruite outside of the continental U.S. and pretty much nationwide and have a 45 credit hour requirement. I have not seen a specific policy of theirs stated but they generally have accepted NA or RA degrees. It is noteworthy that Dallas is much more hard up for qualified candidates than most. So while cnovick is dead on…just be aware that sometimes you will get a recruiter who knows less than you about their requirements.

As for Federal Law Enforcement, they recognize any degree accredited by an agency recognized by the U.S. Dept. of Education and CHEA Read: All RA degrees and DETC (which is your Ashworth College). However with RARE exception, all federal jobs require at least a BS.


2. Is it REALLY that important to go to an RA school if you only plan to get an associates degree and not transfer on?

A.) Nope…not really and it all depends. RA is the most common and accepted form of accreditation, but NA can serve your needs quite well. In my case TCLEOSE adopted a fairly unenlightened policy, which may be reviewed later and modified, but for now, in Texas, a RA is the way to go. It would help if you told us which state you are in. If you did decide to move on to a BS…most DETC schools will accept undergrad credit from anywhere that is accredited, RA or NA….but RA do not generally return the favor. Uof Phoenix does, as well as Southwestern College in KS as well as Capella and a couple of others.


3. Is it really to his advantage to take one of these courses?

A.) If you want to learn Criminal Justice yes. However in the world of law enforcement a degree in business will get you just as far as one in CJ. I recommend you look into a study in something else that could be used in the private sector such as IT, business or private security. CJ is a wonderful academic study and I personally LOVE IT….but that’s the primary reason I continue in it. A BSBA (Business Admin) degree would have gotten me just as far. That being said, I thing my degree helped me get a promotion at my job because it showed that I was serious. It wasn’t the only criteria by far but it did help. Secondly a degree will give a level of confidence in yourself, which is one of those intangibles that is underrated and unmeasured in the workforce yet may be very real on your job performance and thus your paycheck. So yes, getting a degree is always to your advantage, even a NA one.

4. The reason we have been looking at these two schools is because he is currently unemployeed and I am working part time. We do not have the money to pay up front and dont want loans. Are these schools our only options

A.) Okay time for tough love. I don’t see any way that your fiancée can be (or should be) a cop in the condition he is in. He will be a liability to himself and his department, which while not his fault is a reality. I have seen good men and women’s careers cut short by job related (and often unrelated) illness and injury, which while not fair, is the brutal reality of the road. There is hope if this is a temporary situation, but I don’t know if kidney failure generally is.

Your fiancée would be required to go through tough physical training, such as defensive tactics which left me sore and bruised for a week. He may be involved in a fight on pavement, alone waiting for backup and a 3 minute fight may not seem long, but it’s an eternity to those on the ground. A disability can get him (or someone depending upon him) seriously hurt or killed.

A good alternative is dispatch or private security. Both jobs generally don’t involve a lot of physical altercations (though security can, choose your worksite carefully).

Another alternative frequently overlooked for many is that of Private Investigator. A P.I. who is good at what he/she does is worth their weight in gold to a law firm, bondsmen, skip trace agency, etc. It’s an honorable and potentially profitable field. I know of more than one officer who became a PI for a law firm that makes $50,000 plus a year investigating DUI stops for the defense lawyer…which is just one of many fields.

Lastly there is consulting work. A little experience and education could make for a bang up consultant for home and office security. Okay I know you’ll never see any of this on COPS but it’s worthwhile and necessary work.

Also consider work as a probation or parole officer. Generally this requires a BS degree or greater, but in some states like Texas, an NA BS would work fine. Others like Louisiana require a RA BS degree. Again it would help to know which state you are in.

Then there is the job of prison guard or jailer. Avoid these at all cost. My brother is a prison guard and it is a physically demanding job. Injury will be seen as weakness and inmates prey on weakness. In my brother’s case, his job is much more physically demanding than mine. At least I have spray, a baton, generally backup on hand and if need be a gun, he has his wits, training and empty hands. The state he is in has cut down on inmate to officer assaults by sending their guards through a basic peace officer certification course making them bona fide law enforcement officers, thus any assault is a felony warranting a separate arrest and trial. In a 3 strikes state, that can lead to a life sentence really fast.

 

Thank you, Craig, so much for your reply! It was very helpful.

Now, you said 'if he recovers completely' he may be able to get in. As far as getting off disability, that is possible and he is able to get a kidney transplant which will make it possible for him to enjoy a normal life, but he will never be cured of Kidney Failure.

Is THIS a problem??

Poor guy, his dream is to be a Police Officer or Correctional Officer again and I hope he can acheive his dreams...

 

friendorfoe,

Thank you for your reply. Very helpful information. You guys have answered a lot of questions.

You were asking what state we are in. We are in Washington (in the Seattle area). Im not sure if thats a good thing or not!

Also, both you and Craig seemed very concerned about Sean's (my fiancee) physical ability.

Sean was a Correctional Officer and absolutely loved his job. This WAS while he had Kidney Failure but he had a transplant at that time. Since then his kidney has failed again.

But the point is, he made it thru CORE training and it was very physical and he also made an excellent officer.

With kidney failure, NO ONE can tell by looking at you that anything is wrong, and really, if your doing good, nothing is wrong. There is no reason he cant live a normal life with a normal job. It does not change his physical ability at all.

STILL a problem???

Is there a general rule about this sort of thing when applying as a Police Officer?

If you have a degree in Law Enforcement AND you have this condition will they still not hire you?

You say avoid prisons, but he loved working at the prison - is it normal that they would over look his condition for future hire?

And what do you have to do to become a Private Investigator? Do you need previous experience? What kind of degree would it require?

Also, is it wise for him to get two AS degrees - one in CJ and one in Business?

THANK YOU so much for your help and for answering my questions!! We dont want to start something that is only a pipe dream!

 

I work in healthcare administration at a large medical clinic just north of Seattle. One of my occupational medicine physicians does the medical screening and exams for many of the local LEO agencies. She is pretty savvy about their requirements. I will ask her what she knows about kidney transplants and medical clearance for a LEO job.

It would be pretty safe to say that if your fiancee is in active failure, such that he requires dialysis, he probably won't be hired. It would be virtually impossible to keep someone on active duty and work around the dialysis schedule, particularly if he required outpatient dialysis at a kidney center.

I will hopefully report back in a few days, depending if she is on vacation this week or not.

PS: one thing you could do in the meantime would be to call some of the local LEO agencies and talk to the recruiting officer. Ask them if having a kidney transplant is an automatic bar to hiring. Depending on where in the Seattle area you are, I would call the Seattle PD, King County Sheriff, Snohomish County Sheriff, Pierce County Sheriff and the Tacoma PD. These are the largest agencies by far in the Puget Sound basin, and this will give you a good sense of the local hiring practices in this area. It may well be that the answer will be 'it depends', or 'if the applicant gets medical clearance from our doctor, then the candidate may be considered for hiring'. But you won't know until you ask.

I will also say that most public governmental agencies are far more accommodating for an active employee who develops a medical problem. Part of this is due to the Americans with Disabilities Act. I think it may be more difficult for an agency to accept a new candidate with a pre-existing serious medical problem, that may require accommodation in the future. This scenario may make them more leery of hiring such a candidate. I agree that a person in end stage renal disease with a transplant is pretty much good to go, up until the time that the transplant fails, as happened in your fiancee's case.

But again, please talk to some of the local agencies, since their opinion on this topic is the one that matters.

I do know for a fact that having a bone marrow, liver or heart transplant generally is a bar to LEO hiring, just as it is to military enlistment. I suspect the reason for this may be the complicated drug regimens needed to control rejection and the lowered resistance to disease caused by the compromised immune system from taking those very same drugs. Until I talk with some of my doctors up here, I don't know where kidney transplants stand in this regard.

 

Thank you Michael for your reply and for your help! I am anxious to hear what you discover.

My fiancee is starting to get a bit discouraged and I feel really bad for him. This has been his dream for a long time and its horrible that he might not be able to acheive his goals.

We are going to talk with different agencies and find out what they have to say. Where theres a will theres a way, right??

He knows there are a lot of options for him in that field, but I think its just a let down not feeling like hes good enough.

Does the military allow people with kidney transplant?

Sean is currently on dialysis and will be until he receives a transplant. We would LOVE a live donor but have no idea if that is going to happen. Right now he is just focusing on getting a degree an hopefully having it go somewhere for him!

THANK YOU and I look forward to hearing what you find out from your friend!

 

I have to agree with an opinion that has already been expressed. I cannot imagine that someone who has kidney failure would ever be hired as a beat cop. I am not in law enforcement, but I was in the military. Physical limitations or illnesses such as this would pretty much disqualify anybody from going on patrol.

However, with that being said, there are many jobs in law enforcement for which somebody in his condition could still be qualified. These would include dispatch, computer forensics, 911 operator, public liaison officer and many other positions which are basically "desk jobs". He might also consider a job as a security consultant or working in retail loss prevention. In many cases, jobs in security, especially consulting, pay much better than working as a patrol officer.

There is also the up-and-coming field of Homeland Security. There are a growing number of colleges which offer certificates and degrees in Homeland Security, and there is a demand for graduates with these degrees. FEMA, the FBI, Border Patrol and private companies interested in corporate security and disaster recovery are places where these degrees can be put to use.

There is a saying that "when one door closes, another one opens". Although your fiance may no longer be able to be a police or corrections officer, there are opportunities for him out there. He just needs to find them.

 

Since you live in Washington....check out this site for PI work... http://www.dol.wa.gov/ppu/pifront.htm to see the requirements for PIs.

As for prison guard and police work, it sounds like he will be fighting an uphill battle. Though it is not impossible (nothing is) it will be terribly difficult.

Craig and I are concerned about his physical ability because

1.) the job demands good physical condition

2.) so will the hiring board.

No, I do not recommend getting 2 AS degrees...how about just getting one BS? It will look better, not take much more effort and be about the same price. Also it opens up a realm of new schools.

RA schools such as Charter Oak State College (very inexpensive)

or NA schools such as Andrew Jackson University, Southwest University or California Coast University....all very very inexpensive.

 

No, generally speaking, the military will not accept anyone with an organ transplant for enlistment.

Your fiancee should also bear in mind that even if he does not meet the medical requirements to be a commissioned LEO, there are other jobs within those agencies.

Not to sound harsh, but I think you need to start thinking now that given he is in active failure and needs dialysis, I suspect that no local LEO agency would hire him now in any capacity.

Best of luck to you and your fiancee.

 

friendorfoe is correct.

I currently hold a position that hires law enforcement officers. Due to the inherent dangers of the job, it is imperative a street police officer is in good physical condition. He will have to provide medical clearance from his physician and additionally receive medical clearance from the city physician even before he could possibly be considered for an interview. It is extremely doubtful he would be hired.

Nothing is impossible, but there are so many other important jobs in the law enforcement field to consider that do not have the demanding physical requirements.

As friendorfoe advised, get one bachelor’s degree instead of two associates degrees. Best of luck with your future endeavors.

 

Hi there: Welcome aboard. You've received some first-rate information from really knowledgeable folks. I can't add anything to what they've said, except to wish you both the best in both education and health. Janko the Mad Priest

 

Thanks guys.

What do you suggest he get a Bachelors Degree in?

For homeland security - do you need a degree? Or is it a certificate program?

So maybe being a cop is out of the question, but I know he wants to do SOMETHING in this field, so ANY advice is very helpul!

Is it still logical for him to get a CJ degree?

Thanks!

 

Boy, I'll say. Good thread.

sean_jessica05, the kidney failure thing concerns me. If it's PKD (and I'm not saying it is, but if that's what it happens to be), then you know that, ultimately, only a transplant will even come close to getting him back to normal; and even then there's the possibility of the disease's return. And even if a transplant is successful, the anti-rejection medications he'll have to take for the rest of his life may lower his resistence to things just enough that the kind of up-close-and-personal contact that he'd be having, as a police or corrections officer, with, in some cases, some very physically and contageously sick people, might make it so that he should probably never try to work in that field other than as a dispatcher or something like that. A doctor who really understands that may never give him the kind of "clean bill of health" that he would need to do law enforcement work; though he may give him a "clean bill of health" for most other kinds of work.

Just wanted to add that.

 

Also, another question:

What are his chances of becoming an EMT (Paramedic)?

Does his kidney failure hinder him from getting a job doing this?

Im assumeing he cant be a Fire Fighter?

He has expressed interest in this field as well and I am wondering what sort of requirements they have.

Also, to be in the Military reserves, do they have as strict rules on this as all other branches of the military?

This sucks big time! You guys have been so helpful tho!

 

Ultimately, only the police commission, or the supervisor of paramedics/EMTs, or the fire commission in your neck of the woods can answer these questions. You should ask them to get the straight skinny.

But if a transplant is what he ends-up getting, he would be just as exposed to very sick, contageous people in all of those jobs as he would as a police or corrections officer. Plus, as an EMT/paramedic or a fire fighter, he'd have to be very comfortable with serious lifting. Many kidney transplant patients have lifting problems for the rest of their lives. But it just depends. You'd really need to talk to your doctor, as well as the appropriate hiring authorities.

They -- the appropriate hiring authorities -- could also best answer your questions about the utility of a nationally-accredited (as opposed to a regionally-accredited) associates or bachelors degree.

The physical fitness and general health requirements are non-trivial... significant, even. A former kidney failure, or current kidney transplant patient would probably not qualify. But, again, we're not really the ones to best guide you. The various hiring authorities at the agencies about which you are inquiring are typically very approachable for such questions.

Yep. Military reserves usually go through the exact same basic training; and are eligible to be called to active service on a moment's notice.

Kidney disease, like most serious illnesses, can be a bitch. Sadly, kidney disease is one of those kinds of maladies that usually doesn't reverse itself; has no easy remedies; and the remedies it does have are at least partially debilitating when it comes to some types of occupations/careers. Life's a bitch, and then you die.

 

And then the really interesting stuff happens.

 

Gregg was spot on in his comments regarding the fire service or EMS. As a former paramedic and hazmat training lieutenant, I can attest that the physical standards for hiring are probably more rigorous than for LEO. Not to mention, he would be more routinely exposed to sick and infectious people, the very thing one needs to avoid if taking anti-rejection medications for an organ transplant.

 

As far as a CJ degree goes, here is a link to some careers within the field:

http://www.criminaljusticeusa.com/

Also, here is a link for homeland security jobs:

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/display?theme=40

As DesElms stated - the only answers that matter are from those who actually make the decisions. It can't hurt to reach out to your local law enforcement/corrections agency for clarification.

Good Luck!

 

Thats very helpful, thanks. I will pass that along to my fiancee. It is nice to know other areas in that field that are possibilities!