Distance Learning Doctoral degrees + university placement

Hi All:

Long time lurker, first time poster.

How many of you are aware of any DL doctoral degrees earners who have been successful in landing a teaching posting at a traditional B & M university?

I would be very curious to know of successful cases. I think DL is the wave of the future and a great way to combine "life" with earning a Phd. However, traditional profs are often reluctant to endorse this method due to the fact that they lose the ready supply of slave research labour in the form of on-campus grad students and snub the DL degree as being less intensive/rigorous.

Thoughts, opinions, concrete info on #'s of DL Phd's who have been successful in landing B & M teaching positions would be most interesting to read.

Cheers and Merry Chirstmas!

CB4

 

If you're going to join a club, go through the admissions process for joining.

If you're going to join traditional academia, take the path (a traditional doctorate) they set.

There are tons of examples of people with nontraditional doctorates working at traditional universities. But their stories are as varied as their degrees.

Nontraditional programs are not designed to funnel people into teaching positions at traditional universities. First, their (the nontraditional schools') student bodies are largely made up of mid-career professionals pursuing the doctorate to enhance their careers, not start new ones. (True, even, of traditional academics using nontraditional programs to advance their academic careers.) Second, DL programs have distributed faculty and students, which works against building a kind of mentor/mentee situation. Third, related, nontraditional schools often use faculty members from non-academic careers, less likely to be resources for entry into traditional academia. Fourth, I'm pretty sure there is a skepticism regarding such degrees among traditional academics. (Too bad, since the independent study model is typical for doctoral students in many other countries.) Fifth, why spend $50K or more for a job that pays less than you're currently making. (Doesn't apply to everyone, but to many.) And so on.

I'm sure others will come up with more reasons.

 

Thanks Dr. Douglas

Thanks for the response, it was what I feared to be honest. I just don't understand how the same terminal designation, Ph.D or Ed.D or DEd, can be deemed unsuitable for a teaching post requiring a completed doctoral degree simply because of the modality under which one studied. Something wrong with that folks....

I live in Canada and one of our better universities, The University of Calgary, offers an expensive DL doctoral degree but should one be successful in completing it, I am willing to bet that the topic of how one completed it would never come up in an interview.

This standard should be afforded to all universities, even if they do operate out of an office suite and not a sprawling campus. DL learning is DL learning.

CB4

 

You know, I can't imagine how to become an assistant professor. But I've been a campus chair at UoP and have turned down 3 different dean's positions at two other universities. All of those opportunities came about because of my professional experiences and contacts--the doctorate just made them feasible.

The point is, it is those kinds of contacts that lead to post-doctoral opportunities for the DL student. An assistant professorship doesn't make sense--and isn't a natural "next step." (Nor a desirable one, financially or professionally.)

I cannot express enough the value of the doctorate to my career. But the first step in an academic career (as an assistant professor) would be poor next step for a training professional with (then) 25 years of experience. And measuring the efficacy of DL doctoral programs by determining how well they lead to a traditional academic path is a mistake.

 

I echo Rich's sentiments. He has "walked the walk," so he speaks from years of experience. As one who has been working in higher education for nearly two decades, I can offer my observation that there are plenty of people teaching at colleges and universities with non-traditional degrees. Because of my profesisonal interest in distance learning and non-traditional education, I tend to seek out those working at higher education institutions with non-tradition degrees. I know hundreds of them. The advantage of seeking information at Degreeinfo is that you will hear the "rest of the story" (apologies to Paul Harvey). Here it is...

Most of them were hired in their current positions based on their masters degrees (almost all of which were earned at traditional RA instititutions). This includes 1) community college faculty; 2) university faculty teaching in departments that did not require the doctorate, 3) college/university administrators and 4) non tenure-track faculty (instructors, lecturers and adjuncts). Most of these earned their doctorates while working in their current profession. Relatively few had their DL doctorate completed prior to their hire.

Was the DL doctorate beneficial? Yes, but it was most beneficial for those seeking a promotion (e.g. from assistant to associate professor) or seeking a "bump up" on the salary scale. Those who appear to gain the most benefit are adjunct and full-time non tenure-track faculty (most institutions pay a higher wage for those with doctorates), community college faculty (who, by and large, are not required to hold doctorates) and administrators (having the title "doctor" is helpful).

Even though many on Degreeinfo have provided lists of people with non-traditional doctorates teaching at universities, the majority turn out to be non tenure-track faculty. There currently does not exist a compelleing body of evidence that holding a DL doctorate helps to get a full time tenure-track teaching position at a university, but there is a good amount of anectodal eveidence that shows that a DL doctorate can improve the career of someone already working at a university.

This supports Dr. Douglas' observation that DL doctorates exist primarily to enhance mid-career professionals.

I hope that this is helpful...

 

Rich and Anthony have nailed the "lay of the land" with respect to the acceptability of DL doctorates in academia. I say this as a tenure-track professor with a non-traditional undergrad (Regents-USNY, no traditional courses) but a traditional masters and Ph.D.

I have advised several people that wanted to enter academia from the corporate sector to either obtain a tradtional doctorate or to teach in a place that a masters is acceptable. My standard advice to such individuals: cruise the faculty listings in several college catalogs - most list the degrees held by faculty and the institutions in which they were earned. You'll find evidence of exactly what Anthony states. Faculty with DL doctorates are more prevalent in certain types of schools.

In academia, the reputation of a faculty candidate's degree institution, department, and in many cases, members of their dissertation committee, matter. I've participated on faculty search committees where these factors were used in the ranking of candidates. Right or wrong, DL-degreed candidates do not fare well in these types of rankings. The two points I make below provide some insight into why.

First, in most disciplines teaching as a TA (teaching assistant) is a component of most B&M research doctoral programs. This experience is not readily available to most individuals in a DL doctoral program. Most of the institutions that would consider a DL-educated candidate emphasize teaching. However, most DL candidates do not have any university teaching experience to be considered in the ranking of candidates.

Second, a large part of obtaining a B&M research doctorate is "socialization into the academy." Students are being evaluated on whether thaey are acceptable as a future peer. We can debate on whether this should be part of a doctoral program, but it is currently a very real part of most B&M programs. One cannot rub more than one or two professors in their department the wrong way and expect to graduate. The evaluation/grading process throughout a B&M doctoral program is extremely subjective - any professor at any point of the process can easily fail anyone they wish and back it up. This is considered an informal means of "protecting the academy." There is some self-interest at play here as a faculty member, department and institutional reputation IS affected by the quality of its doctoral graduates. I could go on at length about this, but I would surmise that that a DL doctoral student faces a very different environment in this regard. In any event, the perception is that a DL-degreed individual has not been through this vetting process and that there is a greater risk of hiring someone that is a poor fit for the department, institution and/or academic world.

 

I had an interesting conversation with a lady on Christmas Eve that retired from a major Colorado state university . She had been involved in the hiring of full-time professors at the school from an adminsitrative position.

She echoed what has been stated here again and again. She told me:

The name of the school the applicant graduated from was more important than the grades of the student. Tier three and four school applications found their way into the trash almost immediately.

She laughed when I mentioned DL doctorates. She said that unless there was no other possible candidates her university did not want any full-time professors with DL degrees listed in their school catalog. It would make them the laughing stock of the university world!

Said there was some bias against foreign schools in hiring of full-time.

A solid publishing record was more important than teaching skills.

She was surprised that someone like me with no university teaching\administration experience knew as much as I did about university hiring practices. I told her about this board and the high quality of people that contribute. Hopefully she will join us here soon.

 

I agree with much of what has been said by Rich and otehrs.

As a generalization, full time professor jobs are not a dime a dozen (i.e. very competitive). Other than getting a job at U of P as a dept head are you likely to have tons of luck with your DL PhD trying to get a full time professorship and a 1st or even 2nd tier school...probably not (remember this is just a generalization). As someone pointed out though, your third and fourth tier residential PhD's may not either.

DL doctorates do serve a purpose though. First, many get them in order to acheive a personal goal and Second, to advance a non academic career in some sense. This is where this board advises over and over again to weigh options & costs with likely outcomes and benefits.

In my own case I wanted a docotrate for a personal goal, it had to be accredited (for personal reasons and in order to use VA benefits), it had to be DL due to career situation. I was separated from my wife and able to take a full time load and work full time. Spent around 3 years for a 60 credit hour program with ARP (dissertation) of about 200 pages. Much stress at the end but it was worth it. The docotrate has helped me career wise and personally where only an accredited degree would do. BUT....I am not kidding myself to think I will become faculty at Fuller or Dallas theological Seminary any time soon. The point is to be realistic.

Another example, you can get an accredited DL PhD in Psych that will allow licensure in many states but if it is not APA approved your career opportunites are much more limited. Be aware of that going in (read job adverts in the APA Monitor). Does not mean not to get it, just factor reality in to cost, etc.

North

 

Just to note one exception that I know about -- the appointment of Dr. Andres Folleco to a tenure track position at Florida Atlantic University. Dr. Folleco has a Ph.D. in Computer Science from Nova Southeastern. If I remember the article that announced his appointment correctly, he was working as an adjunct for another department of FAU when he was selected. It could be that Dr. Folleco had something special that would have gotten him selected without a Ph.D. -- I don't know. Of course, I guess that FAU would be considered a third or fourth tier institution by most. Still, I've noticed that most departments try to recruit from schools that at or above their own prestige or quality so his appointment is still notable. I'm sure there are hundreds (if not more) other examples. So, for those special few, a DL PhD will not completely exclude them from tenure-track positions at B&M institutions.

Oh, I found the notice of his appointment.

 

Not an exception. This fits the paradigm described by Tony. Foobar and North really nail it, too. As for the snobbery described by carlosb, I have no doubt it exists aplenty. Fine. As I said, what they say isn't accessible isn't really very desirable, either.

 

Wonderful Discussions

Hi All:

Thanks so much for your replies and associated insight - it has been wonderful to read.

My life (busy school principal, rural community, three children under the age of five, FT Varsity Basketball coach) does not allow me to pull up stakes and head off to earn a Ph.D "by their rules". I guess I was hoping that the DL doctorate would be the answer for me...and unless I shell out for the U of Calgary degree, me thinks not.

My two undergrad and M.Ed are from traditional universities so I have the experience with those types of institutions. However you all make so many valid points (especially about the valuable teaching exp. and socialization ) about what takes place during the residence of a Ph.D I can somewhat see where they are coming from.

Thanks especially to Dr. Douglas and Dr. Pena for their posts, I really enjoyed them and learned a lot. Once the children get a little less physically needy (I realize children are needy at all stages!!!!) and I can have more time to write, I will complete a Ph.d for personal interest. I really like Northcentral University (Organizational Leadership) and have had several friends who have had totally positive experiences with them and used the degrees to advance in their careers...not academically.

In any event I'll just keep on publishing my articles, take some courses and hope for the best in the end. Take care everyone and a very, very Merry Christmas to you all!

 

Greetings,

Perhaps it would be more useful to address academic prospects of DL learners a bit differently. With the anticipated burgeoning of demand for online and other distance education, job opportunities at distance learning schools are likely to grow rapidly. In turn, the growth of distance learning institutions is forcing even hide-bound traditional b & M schools to begin experimently with distance education with a bit of fear and loathing for sure. Over the next decade, I expect many more traditional schools to embrace online and other methods of distance learning. Since many, if not most, traditional faculty disdane such use of technology; the opportunities for those experienced in such alternative forms of educational delivery to enter traditional institutions should grow. Thank God the world is not static, and change in educational delivery is well under way.

There is a great deal of satisfaction for many in being part of the cutting edge of such educational transformation.

 

What makes you think he earned his degree DL? Nova does not offer a 100% DL PhD in CS, it is Combined online and on-campus cluster .

 

Also, they have a traditional program.

 

To the best of my knowledge (which comes strictly from reading (often) the information about the NSU Computer Science program) is that Nova only offers this PhD through the combined DL/Cluster format that you pointed out. The fact that you have to spend an extended weekend at Nova four times a year is not going to differentiate it from a fully DL degree. I dare say that most people and especially academics are going to classifiy this degree as a DL PhD. Therefore, it really was no stretch at all to make my observation.

 

JoAnn is correct. It is DL only with cluster or institute format (extended weekends or weeks in FL).

IMO - most would see this as pure DL, however, I do see the Nova program above a pure DL program. The face time counts for something, albeit it being a barrier for some.

 

I personally know 3 Nova Southeastern doctoral grad's who obtained full time, tenure track positions at a B&M state university in PA.

 

Notice the shift in this thread from analysis to anecdote?

 

Notice that no one appreciates why?

 

I know a good number of tenure-track professors at colleges and universities with Nova doctorates, including a couple at my current university. Some went through traditional brick and mortar programs and others were heavily DL.

Regarding going from analysis to anecdote, this is to be expected. I have given my analysis and just gave my anecdote. If you look at the faculty lists at virtual programs, you will see faculty with DL doctorates. If you look at community colleges, you will se an increasing number of DL doctorates, if you look at comprehensive (e.g. masters-level) universities, you will see a few DL doctorates (numbers increasling slowly). If you look at undergraduate liberal arts colleges and research universities, you will see virtually no one with DL doctorates. Will the situation change with the retirement of "old guard" department chairs? I think that it is likely--maybe inevitable. By "faculty", I mean full-time tenure-track assistant, assoicate and full professors, not adjunct faculty or non tenure-track instructors/lecturers.