A rant about Capella from one of its grads...

I just wanted to vent a minute...

I am a Capella MS grad in Human services (06/05), and after a LOT of coaxing from one of their admissions reps, I began their doctoral program 11/07. I dropped it two weeks later because, ultimately, I wanted to pursue something else.

I think I would have dropped from the program even if I had an ongoing interest in Human Services, however. In my experience, I found the ultra-rigid course structure to be somewhat contrived. Yes, I've gone through this Capella process before en route to my MS, but this time around (as a doctoral learner), all the hand holding seemed to be overkill. Apparently, the two required postings per week are supposed to lead to learning. As for me, the bulk of my learning occurred while preparing for the course final project, and I did not need 12 weeks to finish that.

Capella is also a bit expensive - especially for its doctoral learners. You will probably wind up in the same courses as individuals who are studying for their master's, but you still have to pay one flat fee per quarter (almost $4,000)- no matter how many courses you take. I can understand charging a certain fee per quarter if a doctoral student is in his or her comprehensive examination stage or drafting the dissertation (as there are variables influencing success which are hard to predict). But most doctoral learners won’t reach that stage for quite a while, and to charge them almost $4,000 per quarter for coursework in which you don’t get any special services as a doctoral learner seems a bit unfair. Moreover, most learners who work full time won’t be able to take any more than two courses per quarter given the required workload. If you’re not careful and tight for time, you can dump a serious chunk of change into Capella.

In my opinion, Capella is using its doctoral program as a virtual cash cow. Capella’s for-profit status is definitely noticeable in most of its activities, and I am not sure if that process will prove itself helpful, harmful, or neutral in our battle to bring distance learning more so into the mainstream then it already is. The University of Phoenix is known for its ubiquitous marketing and money-driven practices and policies. And while Phoenix may have a solid academic program, its practices and policies regarding money seem to be giving it the appearance of being a degree mill or an easy route to a degree when it is not.

Academically, I think Capella is what you make out of it. I graduated with a 3.92 from my MS program, and I think my education was adequate…it wasn’t taxing in its own right, but I took the initiative in many cases to develop creative project ideas so I could better explore course concepts.

I don’t know if I would recommend Capella to other students at this point…I believe there are better other options out there if one takes the time look into it. I’m curious how these distance learning power players (Capella, Phoenix, AIU) will end up over the long haul.

 

IMO diversification is good, so if you want to get a doctoral degree from a different school, it will be a nice change of pace for you. There was a time when I wanted to go to Capella, but it was simply beyond my financial reach, so it was not an option.

 

Thanks for the report, definitely helpful to others.

Any thoughts where you are going to look next?

 

James, a very forthright and revealing post. In my opinion, a tuition of $4,000 a quarter for doctoral "learners" (The term learner is being used quite liberally by a number of distance learning schools. In my day we were known as students; the term "learner" may make some students feel more comfortable but for me it intimates lower expectations for academic performance), even if one course is taken, appears to be inordinate and beyond the financial means of the vast majority of students (unless they are fortunate to have an employer or the military pick up the tab). I believe that they have recently lowered this tuition somewhat for students involved in the doctoral comprehensive process but this still appears to be a grossly inflated tuition for one course especially in light of the fact that even Ivy League schools such as Columbia University in NYC charge less per graduate level course for SOME of their graduate programs ( for instance the current per course credit in doctoral level social work is approximately $900; $2,700 a course!

The online courses may appeal and work for some students but not for others. Previously this school allowed a doctoral student (oops, I meant learner; one must be politically correct in these grade escalating and social promotion days) to complete the entire program through self-directed studies with one on one mentoring. However this option was discontinued and all students are now required to participate online.

In additon, there appears to be a disparity in the academic level of doctoral students in these online classrooms whereby some are very capable while others appear to demonstrate very questionable academic competencies (ie, such as writing skills) consonant with doctoral level work. From my perspective, this may not be a very comfortable or fair situation for the academically capable student who is paying $4,000 a term and required to critique other students posts that is part of their course grade without obtaining a reciprocal level of academically useful feedack from these less capable students (of course the mentors of these online courses do provide some valuable feedback).

The issues you note highlight the distinct advantages to atttending doctoral programs such as NCU. Not only do they currently offer a more reasonable tution than several of the other "big three" schools, but there is no online courses to attend and from what we hear on this forum, very good student services.

BTW, congratulations on you obtaining the MS degree.

 

I'm sorry that the person who originally posted feels negative about Capella. I respect that. I think every school has students that it cannot please. That's why we have different approaches. I would like to point out that Capella is regionally accredited. By that, I mean that it conforms to rigid standards of what academic output should look like. The Regional Accreditor is satisfied with Capella's standard.

I happen to be VERY happy with my doctoral program. I am in my dissertation at this point (almost finished). I am thankful for Capella. I have looked at all those other schools and for me Capella, was the best choice, given my parameters and style.

I'm sure the person of the original post will find a school that will be commensurate to his likes and style. I wish him much success.

And, also, Simon, as always, your posts are thorough and well thought out! Thanks.

 

This is excellent advice! I feel much like James does about the for-profit experience and that is one of the main reasons I chose a public institution for my Masters. I am not convinced education should be treated as an entrepreneurial business. The tendency to live by the motto, "the customer is always right" interferes too much with the earnest student/instructor/administration relationships. While UoP provides the tools for success; they also provide an atmosphere that strings along an unprepared student population. To be fair, this unprepared population is found at other schools as well but here they are not quite as coddled and drop the program sooner.

Susanna

 

BLACKBIRD: I'm sorry that the person who originally posted feels negative about Capella. I respect that. I think every school has students that it cannot please. That's why we have different approaches. I would like to point out that Capella is regionally accredited. By that, I mean that it conforms to rigid standards of what academic output should look like. The Regional Accreditor is satisfied with Capella's standard.

SIMON: Hi Blackbird. Glad to hear that your doctoral program is working out well for you. However, I disagree with your assessment of James critique as being "negative about Capella". He appears to be genuinely conveying HIS objective impressions about the school that are important for all of us to hear as are yours and others. It is not a matter of good or bad and there was nothing so negative or one sided in his critique that indicated sour grapes or a score to settle. Merely his observations and thoughts, no more, no less. BTW, the RA status of this or any other school has absolutely nothing to do with this or any other posters expressing their impressions and opinions.

BLACKBIRD: I happen to be VERY happy with my doctoral program. I am in my dissertation at this point (almost finished). I am thankful for Capella. I have looked at all those other schools and for me Capella, was the best choice, given my parameters and style.

SIMON: That is good to hear.

BLACKBIRD: I'm sure the person of the original post will find a school that will be commensurate to his likes and style. I wish him much success.

SIMON: I am certain he will too.

BLACKBIRD: And, also, Simon, as always, your posts are thorough and well thought out! Thanks.

SIMON: Thank you. Regards, Simon



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Capella

Hi all,

I'm at Capella in their PhD in General Psychology program. Have finished the coursework and am at the comps stage.

I have generally been satisfied with the program. In my experience, the top students are very impressive. There do seem to be a number of marginal students in the classes. Given the 'inclusive' nature of their admissions that's not surprising. I'm not sure whether these marginal students wash out or not.

As opposed to the original post on this thread, it was the structure of the classes that actually attracted me to the school. I looked at Fielding and realized that with its looser structure I could easily spend a decade wandering thru their program. Of course, others would look at the same choices and jump at Fielding.

I am ambivalent about the for-profit status of the school. But, really, all schools (except for the very few who are sitting on top of monstrous endowments) are essentiall 'for-profit', although they refer to it as being 'tuition driven'.

Regards,
GME

 

Re: Capella

In my opinion, the inclusion of "marginal students" in ANY doctoral level classroom, online or face-to-face, is unacceptable, unfair and a questionable academic practice. This is especially so when considering the exorbitant tuition students are paying for a doctoral level online classroom experience where students should expect to be interacting with students who although may vary somewhat in their academic prowess should never be functioning at a "marginal" DOCTORAL academic level.

From my perspective this is an intrinsic issue when academic admission standards are compromised or "relaxed" to allow for the maximum admission of students including academically questionable students, to enter a proprietary doctoral program. Now if an academically sound student could possibly ignore these "marginal" students' posts that would be one thing but unfortunately they are expected to respond (that is the basis for part of their grade for the course) and critique their "marginal" fellow students' online posts that may be poorly formulated and written. In my opinion this should not be the role of a student but of the academic institution to provide an online learning experience that assures that students who are not up to par academically are placed in an appropriate class congruent with their capabilites but not to impose on the learning experience their academically qualified peers are entitled to.

 

Re: Capella

You make a good point. About how even "non-profits" often may act like a "for-profit."

In my opinion, there are pros and cons on both sides. Non-profits don't necessarily grow quickly and could be slow. For-profit insitutions have to make money or they go out of business. Hence they are motivated to serve the student and improve the system quickly with the best if students complain. Capella, in my opinion, has been quick to respond to student input and make necessary changes when they are needed. I tend to see for-profit institutions as more innovative and less stuck. they also can advertise extensively to elevate awareness and student body size. More students, more money, more programs, more advertising, more awareness, more accreditation, etc.... get my point? For example, Fielding and Saybrook have more inflexible transfer credit policy. Fielding permits something like only 6 masters level credits to come into the Clinical Psych program. Saybrook permits only 18 semester credits. They are also much smaller schools. There is a tradeoff, of course.

 

Re: Re: Capella

That is why some doctoral programs have minimum entry-level requirements, to include:

• Minimum GRE score
• Minimum GPA of 3.0 on all prior coursework.
• Completion of a regionally accredited Masters degree

But these can also be waived, so even though these minimum requirements are listed on paper at many schools, they are not always enforced. For example, I have seen it where a minimum GRE score is required, but if the student fails the GRE, then the requirement is dropped if the student has a mimimum GPA of 3.0 in prior coursework.

The only real way to eliminate marginal doctoral students is to enforce a GRE requirement, but that too is very subjective because the GRE does not measure tenacity and creativity, though the GRE may eliminate both of those traits in some students. In my Masters program, the student who scored the highest on the GRE somehow managed to get two Cs in two graduate courses and he was advised that if he received a third C, then he would be dropped from the program. He was about as square as a box of rocks. That really changed my perception of the value of the GRE as an accurate predictor/measure of future academic success. Conversely, the other two students who had extremely high GRE scores did extraordinarily well in the Masters program.

I do not have a doctoral degree, so I may not have a right to the following opinion, but it seems that a doctoral degree requires tenacity, creativity, intelligence and money $$$. If you want to predict future academic performance in a doctoral program, then look at an applicants academic past, as well as his professional history. That should give a relatively accurate picture of whether he will be successful in doctoral studies.

 

That is the #1 reason (only reason, actually) that I crossed Capella off my list awhile ago.

 

Re: Re: Re: Capella

In fact there isn't a need for admission tests such as the GRE or Miller Analogy Test to screen students who are appropriate for distance learning doctoral programs. What is required are faculty who serve as student mentors to fairly and accurately assess and grade students' academic performance during the initial stages of their doctoral academic programs. If a student demonstrates marginal academic competencies then the student should be placed on probation rather than what is commonplace in many academic institutions; social promotion in spite of inadequate academic potential or achievement. However, this is not the current trend in academia where social promotion rules the day.

Let us also keep in mind that a student with "marginal" academic skills who has been accepted into a doctoral program has had many earlier opportunities in completing associates, bachelors and masters degree programs to remedy their academic deficiencies. Doctoral level programs are not the point to work out "MARIGNAL" academic skills. Improving ones' writing skills is one thing; learning to write a coherent sentence is another.

 

Why the desire to be rid of marginal students? Are they somehow getting in your way? I think a marginal student knows that finishing the doctoral program will be hard for them and in the end it could be a waste of money. Why not let them try? A former governor of my state published his autobiography awhile back and I read it. He was a medical doctor. He mentioned that in medical school he knew plenty of students who struggled constantly with their grades and graduating. Many of them after graduating became very competent doctors, well liked by their patients. At the same time he knew many students who did very well but ended up not being so great at medicine because they didn't just have the right manner about them. My point is this: there is more to grades and GRE scores that determine if a person will benefit from a doctorate.

Don't like to help your fellow students? An honest critique of their work could help them get better, am I right? At any rate, I doubt it is a real burden. In my English Comp and Algebra classes I am asked to help weaker students all the time. I enjoy it. They really do benefit.

 

BRANDON: Why the desire to be rid of marginal students? Are they somehow getting in your way?

SIMON: Not at all. It is just my perspective that a marginal student is not academically ready to pursue doctoral level studies. As simple as that. I know this may not sound politically correct but quite frankly not everyone is capable of completing a doctoral degree program. We should all be cognizant of our strengths and limitations at the point of pursuing doctoral level studies and that regardless of what the "party line" indicates that everyone has the ability to achieve whatever goal they wish, in reality this just ain't so.

BRANDON: I think a marginal student knows that finishing the doctoral program will be hard for them and in the end it could be a waste of money. Why not let them try?

SIMON: Primarily, a marginal student by the very nature of the definition of "marginal" should not be in a doctoral program. So it is not a matter of "letting them try" because they obviously had many earlier opportunities to remedy and improve their academic competencies. A person who enters a doctoral level program is not there to engage in remedial coursework but to build upon academic skills resulting in doctoral level conceptual thinking and processing not learning how to write a basic sentence.

BRANDON: A former governor of my state published his autobiography awhile back and I read it. He was a medical doctor. He mentioned that in medical school he knew plenty of students who struggled constantly with their grades and graduating. Many of them after graduating became very competent doctors, well liked by their patients. At the same time he knew many students who did very well but ended up not being so great at medicine because they didn't just have the right manner about them. My point is this: there is more to grades and GRE scores that determine if a person will benefit from a doctorate.

SIMON: You have not proven your point whatsoever and are confusing being marginal with not being a very good student. The governor you are referring to obtained a medical degree prior to social promotion being a guiding principle in admission policies. Individuals either had the academic ability to succeed in medical school or not and would not have been admitted to medical school otherwise. Those students you mention who were not doing very well were DEFINITELY not marginal but were just not exceptional students. They wer average students but not marginal. What we are referring to in previous posts are students in online classes who cannot FORM A BASIC SENTENCE and I am not exagerating the extent of the problem either.

BRANDON: Don't like to help your fellow students? An honest critique of their work could help them get better, am I right? At any rate, I doubt it is a real burden. In my English Comp and Algebra classes I am asked to help weaker students all the time. I enjoy it. They really do benefit.

SIMON: Yes Brandon as you note, in your English Comp and algebra course it is perfectly acceptable to "help your fellow students" improve their marginal basic reading, writing and mathematical competencies. However, not at the doctoral level. In addition, as previously noted it is not the role of a doctoral student who is spending up to sixty to seventy-five thousand dollars to obtain an advanced degree to tutor someone who is at best functioning academically at less than an individual with an associate of arts degree.

 

Capella...sigh

It seems Capella discussion is always one filled with strong opinion.

My reason for my initial comments pertained to my personal path. Capella is RA, but the issues I took issue with are seperate and apart from that.

Like I mentioned earlier, I had a pretty good GPA upon graduating from Capella (3.92), so I was obviously able to perform within their system. I don't know if my GPA would have been so high had I studied a human services degree from another school - Online, BM, or otherwise.

I think there are more marginal students in the courses I took than stellar, but that was my experience.

Here's an interesting aside, for what it's worth. The problem with marginal students may pertain to the School of Human Services. I began my studies with Capella as a clinical psychology learner (two quarters), and I have to say that the discussions I had during those two quarters where some of the best in my entire degree program. It seems like the students in the human services program had tacks that were not quite as sharp as their clinical psychology counterparts.

Maybe the clinical psychology program, with its required residencies at the master's level and ultra, ultra strutured environment attracted a better caliber of student. Who knows?

 

Re: Capella...sigh

Once again James you have clearly and objectively related your experiences with this school. Your point about the Clinical Psychology program providing a more intellectually stimulating environment than the program you graduated from is a very interesting observation. The bottomline is that you graduated with a valid degree and I wish you the best in whatever endeavors you seek in the future. Simon

 

A couple of thoughts:

In my experience one of the great advantages of the online format is that marginal students don't hold up the class (as opposed to an in-class format where one seriously lost student can eat up an entire class session). At Capella the typical requirement is that you respond to at least one other learner's posting each week. For me, it has been pretty easy to locate and respond to quality posts.

Capella -does- have a gatekeeping course, at least in the psych doctorates. And, according to former Psy chair, folk do wash out in that course. (In a conversation to me, the chair also claimed that Capella had an unadvertised policy to refund tuition if they (Capella) decided to drop someone from the program in the first quarter. I've never seen any verification of this and I'd bet the school would hesitate to confirm it).


Regards,
GME

 

A significant problem of having marginal students in an online classroom is that they can negatively impact the morale and feelings of pride of other students in being part of a doctoral program. I have experienced this first hand with a number of my peers and quite frankly it was a let down for several of us who agreed " how did these individuals ever get out of high school let alone get admitted into a doctoral program"? Yes, we attempted to get around this issue by primarily responding to students who were functioning intellectually on a graduate level. However, we still felt very disappointed with the school and annoyed that we were placed in such an imposition.

 

I had similiar complaints about Capella. I thought it was too structured and waaaaayyyyy overpriced.

So if you'd like, come on over to NCU! I liked my PhD program at first, and now, since I began the dissertation process, I love it!