??? Scups ???

Ever since joining this forum, I've read a lot about SCUPS and now I keep reading about their alledged affiliation with NCU. What is the deal with SCUPS???

This is from their website:

• California Approves SCUPS MFT and PsyD Degrees as Meeting Licensure Requirements.
• SCUPS Law School Registered by California Bar; Grads Eligible to Sit for Bar Exam.
• SCUPS Degrees/Units Now Transferable to NCU, A Regionally Accredited University.
• SCUPS Psychology Graduate's Credentials Approved in Alberta, Canada.
• Another SCUPS Graduate Licensed as a Clinical Psychologist in California.
• Congratulations David Evan Lotter on Passing the Washington, D. C. Bar Exam.

I gather from their website that many of their graduates are able to get licensed in various jurisdictions based upon theri coursework at SCUPS, which seems to lend some credability to their DL curriculum -- or no??? What is the deal with SCUPS??? Why does there appear to be vitrolic opinions about SCUPS??? Thoughts?

Note: I would never waste my time with a non-RA school, but that's not the issue in this case. For those of you who don't know it, SCUPS is not RA.

 

I don't think I'd be quite so quick to say, "Never!" Non R/A programs can serve their students well so long as the student understands the limitations of the program and the somewhat limited utility of the degree. These things aren't easy to divine from a website.

There's no easy way to tell how many SCUPS J.D. graduates are now lawyers, for example. CalBar's statistics show that very few SCUPS J.D.s attempt, let alone pass, the California Bar exam. But IIUC, applicants are credited to various schools only during the first year after they graduate. After that, they are lumped together. So if a SCUPS grad waits for a year or fails twice, his eventual success doesn't inure to the school's credit.

And for those SCUPS J.D. grads who DO finally pass, the school made it possible to become lawyers!

 

I selected CCU because, for one thing, the psyc programs allowed the student to sit for the state license. That tells me there is some level of quality to the program. With that said, I don't know what people are so down on SCUPS.

As for your Note: I would never waste my time with a non-RA school... statement - I would not call a non-RA school a waste of time. I did learn alot from my CCU classes. I agree that it may not have the value that an RA school has but I would not call it a waste of time either.

 

I seem to remember that someone recently wrote that some SCUPS PsyD grads were licensed in a couple of other states as well. Does anyone remember which thread that was in?
Jack

 

One issue that I personally have with SCUPS is that years ago (but still under the same ownership, IIRC), they dishonestly modified a quote out of Bears' Guide and used it in an advertising campaign. So they were illegally claiming that Bears' Guide said things that it didn't and used these false statements in an attempt to defraud potential students.

 

The truth will out

It's funny, isn't it?

We get accused of taking a hard "R/A or the Highway" stance on this forum but let a poster actually say that he would never consider a non R/A program and we stand in line to say, "Now wait a minute!"

 

me again: "Why does there appear to be vitrolic opinions about SCUPS?"

John: Well I don't think my criticism is "cruel and bitter" (that's what my dictionary says for vitriol). I have written about more than 3,000 schools in the 31 years I've been doing this stuff. In all that time, only one school made up a counterfeit page of Bears' Guide, in which they had "me" saying much better things about them than what I actually said, and sent that to their prospective students. And only one school ever made up fake quotes allegedly from me, about their competitors, having "me" say much more negative things about them than what I really wrote, and sent that to prospective students. This was many years ago, and they stopped doing this when they got the "cease and desist" letter, but I guess I'd be less annoyed if they had ever apologized or even explained.

 

Ahyhhhh, that explains it!!! That was pretty bold on their part!!!

 

Is the same ownership/management/administration around these days that did you dirty back when? It appears that new ownership has taken over but maybe the same management is around?

Bing

 

Re: The truth will out

It wasn't always that way, but that attitude seems to have crept in about three years ago, possibly due to the Federal government's acceptance of DETC degrees. Prior to that, there was little tolerance for anything but RA.

It still seems to me that RA is the safest bet because the utility is universal, wheras the utility of DETC and/or state accredited schools is inherently limited. With that in mind, why would anyone choose anything but RA? Naturally, there are some exceptions, such as trying to get licensed, but those exceptions are not the norm for most people.

 

I spoke to SCUPS (and Northcentral University) founder Donald Hecht only once, probably 6 or 7 years after the counterfeiting event. He was very cordial, and wanted me to know about Northcentral's candidacy for regional accreditation. I waited for him to say something about the SCUPS matter, but he didn't. In retrospect, I probably should have brought it up, but I didn't.

 

Those exceptions are NOT the norm. But there are cases where there is no R/A school offering the desired program so what do you do?

I AM finding it harder and harder to justify totally UNACCREDITED schools these days, however.

 

Re: Re: The truth will out

Why do you think "RA is the safest bet?" Utility issues with DETC accredited schools are few and far between. The most utility problems with DETC schools is in the academia field, but now there are DETC graduates teaching all over the world.

I will challenge any employer to tell me they will not accpet my degree from a DETC accredited institution. First, there aren't many out there. Second, when I challenge their so called "RA only policy" they'll realize that DETC is just as recognized as RA. I've proven this point by challenging Excelsior College on their decades long "RA Only" acceptance of credits. Once they were challenged and realized federal law is being drafted to prevent discrimination, EC is now changing their policy and drafting new guidelines on accepting NA credits. This is going to start happening at "RA Only" colleges across the states, whether you want to accept it or not.

Any utility issue in the private sector comes from a lack of knowledge from the employer about accreditation. Period...end of story. When you educate your prospective employer, they'll see that NA is also a recognized accreditor and they will most likely accept your NA degree.

I chose a NA degree because it was affordable, rigors, quality education, recognized by CHEA, US Dept of Education and has been specializing in correspondence education for over 75 years. As someone had stated earlier (I believe Dr. Douglas) the DETC should not become the 7th RA, but instead become the gold standard in distance education.

 

Re: Re: Re: The truth will out

I think it's a safER bet. Diplomas, RA or NA, do not come with guarantees. However, many employers won't even look at anything but an RA degree for hiring. It may be just another piece of criteria to weed a prospective employee out. To me, I see some more solid standards in place for RA than the others. Having said this now, I wonder if this thought is starting to buckle. My own company will soon start allowing tuition assistance for NA schools come January. The policy has long been RA or no way here.

My thoughts are that we have so many foreign degreed people here, and some appear to be bogus degrees that few have time or resource to check up on, that it has diluted the "waters". If companies are bringing in degreed people who have bogus degrees and degrees that are nearly impossible to check up on, then why in the world does it make any difference whether a person has an RA or NA degree? Experience is then King and degree source might take a backseat. This is just an opinion based on things I am seeing in my industry(heavily outsourced to unscrupulous contracting companies and h-1b'd to the hilt).

Rich did some PhD research about the acceptability of degrees. I wonder if his research would yield the same results if duplicated today...or, if it holds up from industry to industry.

We had the discussion before about people teaching with NA degrees. I found some examples. However, my findings were largely refuted due to the fact that the teaching jobs these people had were either in jobs like ROTC, or maybe only required an RA master's to teach, or other things.

By and large, I do think that most colleges are going to look for RA candidates to hire. They will likely give very little thought toward an NA candidate...even at schools like NCU or Touro that is the case. If you look through NCU's mentor list you won't see any non RA schools listed from the PhD ranks.

Oh, and your point about affordability of an NA degree does not escape me either. Generally, I see that NA schools have much lower tuition.

 

Re: Re: Re: The truth will out

1. If you want to be a professional in your field and if you want to share your knowledge with others at the collegiate level (someday), then why waste your time getting a non-RA degree if it will preclude you from sharing your knowledge at the local state university?

2. Many companies will only consider RA graduates for employment. Why take a chance of being denied employment in the future when you can pursue a RA degree?

3. I can't find where I read this, but the State of Texas is drafting legislation that will only allow RA degrees to be used for educational purposes in the Texas Commission on Law Enforcement. I only bring this into the picture because I'm a cop.

4. If an employer denies you employment simply because you do not have a RA degree, then what are you going to do about it? Litigation?

5. I understand that the Federal government is now accepting DETC degrees. With that in mind, can anyone point to an example where one (1) applicant has been hired with a DETC degree either as an FBI agent or as a U.S. Army officer (not National Guard or Reserve)???

With the exception of #5, why take a chance? If you getting a DETC degree simply for personal enrichment and not for reasons 1-4, then more power to you. But if reasons 1-4 may come into play, then your safest bet is to stick to RA institutions.

My .02

 

Re: Re: The truth will out

NY?

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: The truth will out

Well, yeah. Anyone who has graduated from one of these three schools, all DETC-accredited:

• Air Force Institute for Advanced Distributed Learning
• Army Institute for Professional Development
• Marine Corps Institute


Or this guy, although he did also go to an RA school:

http://pacer.utm.edu/2668.htm

Or this guy:

John Daniel Caine, 36. Hometown: Oro Valley, AZ. In 1990, Major Caine received a B.A. in Economics from the Virginia Military Institute. Caine went on to serve as an F-16 Mission Commander during ENDURING FREEDOM in Afghanistan and IRAQI FREEDOM in Iraq. He is currently a Major on active duty in the Air National Guard and serves as both an F-16 Operational Test Pilot and Chief Operating Officer at the Air National Guard Reserve Test Center. Caine’s awards for military service include the Distinguished Flying Cross, two Air Medals, the Joint Service Achievement Medal, two Air Force Commendation Medals, and the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award with Valor four times. Concurrent to his military activities, Caine is pursuing a Master’s degree in Air Warfare from the American Military University. Caine serves the community as a leader for the Arizona chapter of the Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis Association.

or this guy:

http://www.usmc.mil/genbios2.nsf/0/B6708B8D790177D485256D9000678185?opendocument


Now, I don't know if they were hired because of their DETC credentials, but apparently its good enough for some of our military leaders, and that's just AMU.

 

New York IS an interesting, but unique, exception.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The truth will out

Were they hired because they had RA Bachelors degrees, in addition to ancillary DETC degrees? I would presume it is the former. I'm looking for someone who gired hired as an FBI agent and/or a U.S. Army commissioned officer (not Guard or Reserve) based upon a stand-alone DETC Bachelors degree.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The truth will out

Well, of course I don't know the answer to that question, nor do you, for that matter. The fact is, each of the examples I have pointed out thought enough of the DETC-accredited degree to pursue it. Would it be outside the realm of possibility that they may have at least been promoted because of their further studies? Again, I have no way of knowing either way, but if it wasn't worth their time, would these officers have pursued these studies? I have known many military officers in my day, and they are not in the habit of wasting their time on anything.

I found these examples after a very brief Google search. I am sure there are more out there, if you care to take the time to attempt to answer your own question.

BTW, I'm not arguing RA is not the "gold standard" of accreditation. I know that it is. It just irritates me to no end when people on a DL web site, who KNOW about accreditation, try to tell me my DETC studies are a waste of time.