South African Theological Seminary Question

I have spent months trying to find a school where I can finish my Masters in Theology. Through this board I came upon SATS and after looking at the website I have a question that I thought someone on this board could answer.
I'm a bit confused on how their credit hours work.
Basically, I have a Bachelors in Practical Theology and have completed 35 hours towards a Masters in the same.
I read on their site about advanced placement where one can enter the program and only write a thesis if they have a broad theological background. How does this work? How many US hours is their M.Th.?
Thanks for your help and any feedback you have about this school.

 

I have just been honored to be approved to supervise MTh programs in Worship Leadership (appropriate for Music Ministers, Worship Pastors, etc.) at SATS. I'm still new - but will try to give some answer to your questions.
Yes - it is entirely possible to do the MTh through a thesis only program (which is consistent with research degrees at many schools). The M.Th. at SATS is not measured in 'credit hours.' Be aware, however, that their MTh is closer to an American "MA" than to a MTh. The American MTh follows an M.Div. program. The SA MTh requires only a Bachelors as a prerequisite.

Hope this helps. I think you will find SATS very affordable, credible (they are in the process of applying for approval for a DTh program, as well) and very student friendly. Good luck with it. And to anyone interested in Worship Leadership studies, drop me a line!

Randall

 

This is not really an "advanced placement" program. This is a research oriented degree program. You must write a research proposal, have it accepted, embark on the research, write everything up in accordance with the university specifications and to the satisfaction of your advisor, and then, if you've jumped through all the right hoops without a lot of mistakes, you get your degree. Sounds simple? It's not. I'd bet that the only way you could do it in less than two years is if you're working at it full-time. It's a great option for many people but it's not easy and it's not a short-cut. Good luck.
Jack

 

Re: Re: South African Theological Seminary Question

How many times does this need to be said? The reason why the ThM follows the bachelor's in other countries while the ThM follows the MDiv in the US is because the ministerial credential in other countries (and, for that matter, in the US up to the 1960s) is the BD.

 

johnsorrell,

Some of your questions are answered in my post here.

Ted hit it right on the head: In South Africa, the Bachelor of Divinity is the degree of ordination; whereas in the US it's the MDiv. In South Africa, the logical next step for those with a BD or BDiv is the MTh, just like the MTh or ThM is the logical next step for those in the US with an MDiv.

SATS does not, however, require that the prerequisite degree be the BD or BDiv. For example, I inquired, and SATS replied that it would, indeed, accept this unusual US Bachelors in Pastoral Studies as requisite to its MTh program. Your Bachelors in Practical Theology would quite likely be adequate, too. So would a BTh (or ThB), quite likely.

In fact, any bachelors in a religious/theological subject area would likely be adequate... if not for the "thesis-based" version of the SATS MTh, then at least for the "structured" version. The "structured" version is specifically for MTh students who have a weaker -- possibly even a non-existent -- undergraduate theological background. Students in the "structured" version of the SATS MTh write three shorter papers instead of one, big thesis; and students in the "structured" program may, in addition, be asked to take theological courses (the cost of which is not included in the cost of the SATS MTh) to fill-in any theologically-weak areas.

Hope that helps.

 

Gregg is correct. I was accepted into the MTh program at SATS and I don't even have a religous degree at all.

I have a BA in English (RA) and some denominational non-degree credit. I was accepted based upon this to Abilene Christian University in their MA program (my denomination) and took 18 semester hours there. That was the extent of my theological education.

So yes, SATS is fairly liberal with admittance.

But as also mentioned previously in the thread, that does not mean the work is not top notch and difficult. I found my advisor to be very demanding in the quality that was expected. He was very polite and friendly, but demanding. In a good way.

clint

 

How is SATS viewed in the theological circle? Among churches, etc?
I mentioned it to my father who has been in the ministry for 35 years and his first thought was that it sounded bogus. How have you found it to be received?

 

Well, if you are speaking of its reception in the USA, then they aren't going to have much of a reputation as of yet, as it is a fairly new institution.

Is it bogus? No way. It is totally reputable and on the up and up. My dad was also in ministry for decades and I have been in ministry for 10 years. It is totally legit.

You would get a good education there. For old timers, it is a different paradigm of learning. Of course many of them will worry about its legitimacy at first, I mean it is from South Africa. But just a little bit of research will show that it is absolutely fine and dandy.

Now, how it is received by any particular congregation or denomination is totally dependent upon that particular group. For some, it will be just want the Dr ordered. For others, it won't mean a thing. Some denominations require education from one of "their" institutions. My congregation actually footed the bill for my SATS experience.

So it just depends. But in no way is it bogus.

clint

 

Your father may be part of a generation that tends to believe, wrongly, that the U.S. is superior in all things. South African universities, generally, are every bit as good as those in the U.S. Foreign credential evaluators in the U.S. (upon which U.S. universities, govenment agencies, and private employers rely to declare foreign degrees as good as U.S. ones) routinely assess South African degrees as equivalent to U.S. ones.

One of our esteemed members here, Dr. Bill Grover, got his PhD from a South African university... and recently announced his appointment to teach (and to lead a program) at an accredited U.S. seminary. There are many other examples.

You're right that SATS is not well-known in more than just some theological circles. The same, however, can probably be said for any number of small, accredited U.S. seminaries, divinity schools or schools of theology. Those institutions -- including SATS -- are, nevertheless, legitimate, credible and rigorous.

As for theological sensibilities/underpinnings/church affiliations, read my post here.

 

Re: Re: Re: South African Theological Seminary Question

The SA MTh and the USA ThM are not the same.

In the USA the three year grad degree ,MDiv, often is the prerequisite to beginning ThM studies. IN SA the BTh. is the prereq and that qualification can be done in a shorter time than the MDiv requires!
This MDiv degree formerly here was called the BD.

Also, many ThM programs either include the Biblical languages (as DTS) or require them as prereqs (as Western).

The SA MTh in Bible/Theology is NOT the equivalent of the USA ThM in the same disciplines in learning outcomes , in prereqs, in duration, and probably in utility too.

 

I am a little apprehensive, as I do not want to make the same mistake twice.
After graduating from college I went to Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary and completed 32 hours towards a MDiv. I left the school and moved to a place where Distance Learning was my only option.
I was then duped into a big mistake. I registered with Trinity College of the Bible and Theological Seminary (Newburgh). I only completed one class with them. Until finding this board I did not realize the mistake I made. I am cancelling my enrollment with them ASAP, but need to find another place to finish.
My fear is that SATS could come back to "bite" me in a resume situation. I am a minister in a Southern Baptist Church and as you well know, SB are some of the most close-minded individuals when it comes to schooling. I'm just fearful that a committee would see that and pass on me out of speculation.

 

My dear Mr Sorrell:

In good Confucian order, you must respect your father and his opinions, so as not to be a hsiaojen lacking hsiao (a pissant bereft of breeding).
I don't have to respect your father and his opinions. He ain't my paw.
So I can say that your father is a dom drol on this. God bless him anyway.

Here's the deal:
SATS is government-accredited in SA, the first freestanding seminary to receive that status. SATS personnel are well-qualified academically and known to be extraordinarily helpful to distance learning students. Academic standards at SATS are equal to those in US accredited seminaries.

You simply cannot structure your life around what some future committee of screaming jehus might or might not say. That way lies madness, not to mention high presumption against the operation of the Holy Ghost in the extending of a call.

You are smart in shaking free of the Newburgh mess. See old threads for my intransigent take on Trinity.

My theological education is unconventional compared to what is usual in my denomination--which is far stricter than yours in such matters. That has not interfered with my brilliant career. (ROFLMAO!) Remember that it is you who may or may not receive a call to some future ministry--not your resume. In a big outfit like the SBC there's loads of wiggle room despite what some pinhead DOM might tell you. Trust me.

You will be well served by getting education and a degree from SATS. They will see to it that you get both. And that right cheaply and with rigour. What more can you ask?

I trust that you and your esteemed father are well. Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will be able to make up his own blerrie mind. My very best wishes to him and to you. And welcome aboard!

Janko the Mad Priest, BA., MDiv., MA.

 

I tend to agree (in general) with Unk. Regarding the educational aspect of his post, he is correct. While I am no expert on SBC, I think SATS would serve you just fine.

clint

 

Uncle Janko,
Why don't you just come out and say what you think? JK

My father has good intentions and as any good father wants his son to make the best choices possible.

I'm very impressed with SATS and want to make sure that my previous learning (not life experience, but actual Masters work) is recognized and counts for something.

I've applied and am waiting to hear back from them. If I do enrol I need some direction in what trac to take. The thesis route or structured route?

I've searched the web and have come up empty on articles about SATS written by outside, credible sources. Of course, not counting the immense input on this site.

 

Bill: The ThM from schools following the US system and the MTh from schools following the UK system (incl. SA) are both one year following the first professional degree in theology, no?

 

John:
I am a Southern Baptist and am almost finished with my PHD from a southern baptist seminary. I have completed my MDIV and THM as well from the same seminary. here are my observations:
- SA schools are very good. In fact, I have been impressed with their scholarship. I am thinking of doing an MA in Islamic studies to help with finishing my dissertation topic.
-That being said, getting an MA from UNISA will not affect me as far as SB's go because I will already have three degrees from their institution. you are correct, they are some very closed minded people. So, my question to you would be what do you intend to do with your degree?

If you intend on letting your THM be a "union card" to ministry, then I would go with a Southern Baptist institution to finish the THM. If you merely want the scholarstic exercise, then by all means, the SA schools are more than sufficient.

You never mentioned where you BA was from. If you havre a BA from a traditionally baptist school, then it really won't matter where your THM is from. I know...I have 15 years experience in ministry as well as have taught at the college and seminary level. Churches are merely looking for that "union card" that let's you in to the ministry. If you BA is from that "traditional" baptist institution, then it won't matter where your THM is from.

All that said, like one person said earlier in the thread, you and I serve a God who is bigger than all those degrees, churches, and committees. If you felt led to go to a SA school, then by all means go. If a committee can't accept that, then you probably don't want to go to that church anyway.

My two cents...

Page

 

I believe the more rigorous ThM programs (e.g., Dallas Theological Seminary) require 2-3 years, at least, to finish the program. These are the more complete or thorough master programs for theology in the US. Language requirements and research are quite stiff in these programs.

What you are thinking of is that is probably more equivalent to the UK Mth is a Master of Arts (MA) or something along that line...a more broad-based degree than the pure ThM.

Hope that helps (not wanting to have answered for Dr. Bill, but I don't think he'll mind my butting in...will you, Bill. WILL YOU, DR. BILL! HA!

Starkman

 

The reason why the ThM at Dallas Theological Seminary is four years is because they don't issue you the MDiv along the way. Other US schools issue the MDiv at 90 sem hrs/135 qtr hrs and then the ThM after an additional 30 sem hrs/45 qtr hrs, which eventually adds up to the same 120 sem hrs as DTS.

 

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Ted

As I understand it, the SATS MTh may be begun with a preceding four year degree. One can have, eg, a BA in Bible and enter the SATS MTH and finish the Mth in one or two years. Thus, the SATS MTh degree has taken only five or six years.

In contrast, the ThM at US schools as Western Seminary has as its prerequisite the three year MDiv which has as its prereq a four year BA.
Thus TO EVEN BEGIN the ThM at Western requires one to have seven years of schooling. Add to that a minimum of one year to do the ThM.

That's eight years of schooling to get the USA ThM as opposed to only five or six to get the SATS MTh!

Furthermore, unless things have changed, Hebrew and Greek are REQUIRED as prerequisites to complete a ThM in Bible or Theology at Western or Dallas or TEDS or The Masters etc. BUT these are not required in the SATS MTh.

Now, I admit that I am looking at this as an academic not as a minister, but here may be the practical effect: Many accredited USA seminaries which offer PhDs or ThDs in Bible or in Theology, as The Masters, require the four year grad degree ThM as the prereq to do doc work.

Dallas will admit one with only an MDiv (but will require addl work) but Dallas will NOT admit one with only an MA! And, IMO, Dallas would look upon the SATS MTh as an MA not as an MDIV.

Also, The Baptist in PA. requires the MDiv. The MA is not enough to get in! And, those with ThMs (not the SATS MTh) are not required to do as much to get the PhD.

Therefore, the ThM has utility which the MTh or MA does not. These schools see a difference between the SA MTh and the USA ThM which I think needs to be noted.

What I am saying is that neither the duration nor the content nor the utility of a SATS MTh is the equivalent of a USA sort of ThM. Unfortunately, the nomenclature is confusing.

The two degrees are not the same!

BUT, that does not mean that I think the SATS MTh is not a good program. I am just saying it is not a ThM.

My advice in such situations is to if possible bounce the SATS MTh off of some US schools and denominations to see how they might receive that degree.

Bill

 

I think you also need to remember that the SATS MTh is based on the British educational system, which is quite different from the American. A British BA, for example, is not the same as an American BA, but is at a higher level. I think the point Ted is trying to make is that the MTh in the British system is normally a first postgraduate degree, between BD / BTh / BA(Theol) [depending on which University], and PhD, in the same way that the American ThM is a postgraduate degree between MDiv and PhD.

In the UK the progression would frequently be BA/BSc/BEd - BTh/BD/BA(Theol) - MTh - PhD [although the first BA/BSc/BEd is not mandatory, but would be held by the majority of those preparing for ordination]
Which is basically the same as the American: BA/BS - MDiv - ThM - PhD

Also an MTh is not obligatory for a PhD candidate - direct entry from the BD i s acceptable.

P