Oceania University of Medicine

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by IMNOEINSTEINBUT, Oct 8, 2005.

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  1. IMNOEINSTEINBUT

    IMNOEINSTEINBUT New Member

  2. bullet

    bullet New Member

    hard to foretell

    Impossible to foretell.
     
  3. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    It qualifies its graduates to sit for the USMLE, which is pretty much all it takes to get it done in most states. Well... that's an oversimplification, but the point is that not just any graduate of any non-U.S. med school can sit for the USMLE; and that if a given school's graduate can even sit for the USMLE, then that, alone, is a pretty good indicator that the school's legit.

    In Oceania's case, it's also working with Harcum College and Becker College... both U.S. regionally accredited... and another credibility indicator.

    I don't know about Samoa's accreditation rules/policies/procedures, but I'm guessing that Oceania's probably got all necessary permissions/approvals/accreditations that that government issues. It seems to me that I once hunted all that information down; and that once I understood how it worked in that country, everything seemed to check-out. Of course, I can no longer remember a thing about it... other than that it checked-out, of course.

    There's no question that Oceania's not a mill or anything like that, if that's what you're worried about. Unless a given state has an objection to the coursework being via distance learning, then there should be no problem with Oceania's graduates being treated just like those from any other non-U.S., but nevertheless legitimate, med school. But there's the rub: That distance learning thing might be really irritating to some states... notwithstanding Oceania being completely legit, credible and rigorous otherwise.

    There are states like that with regard to lawyers, too. For example, Texas will allow graduates of non-ABA-approved law schools to sit for its bar exam (after they've practiced for a while in their own states, that is); but there is a specific "no distance learning" exclusion written right into Texas law. So, for example, graduates of any of California's non-ABA-approved-but-nevertheless-California-Bar-Accredited/Registered law schools could eventually go be a lawyer in Texas... but not if said law school was a distance learning law school.

    If any US state medical boards have a similar, specific "no MD degrees by distance learning" exclusion, then Oceania would not qualify... even though the Oceania distance learning MD graduate could sit for the USMLE. Go figure.
     
  4. bullet

    bullet New Member

    99.9%

    Gregg,

    You are right for the most part.

    Many if not all of the schools that offer certain components off-campus have been looked down upon versus their B&M counterparts.

    The problem with the USMLE is that it's not a guarentee that the state will eventually license "you", the multi-part USMLE is only a first step in the process to permanent licensure.

    So yes, anyone looking at FAIMER-IMED and/or the W.H.O. you might / will find a particular medical school listed, you will be allowed to sit for the USMLE but you may not be able to obtain LICENSURE.

    There is alot of "hulabaloo" on the subject of distance education in medicine but it's based on the whims of the individual doing the
    "hulabalooing", not on actual performance based results.
     
  5. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Re: 99.9%

    Hey... I'll take 99.9% (which I suspect is a generous grade on your part, in my case) any day of the week! ;)
     
  6. deanhughson

    deanhughson New Member

    The real question is why would any serious medical student not want to go to a medical school to study and try to do it via the internet?

    And bigger question is would you want to go to a doctor who had got their degree via the internet? THis particular school is owned by an investor in Florida and has been the center of a major discussion in Australia as an unrecognized medical school.

    http://www.alp.org.au/media/0205/msedu090.php
     
  7. deanhughson

    deanhughson New Member

    Re: Re: Oceania University of Medicine

    also just doing a prelimary search the school has been told by Georgia that its graduates are not eligible for licensure. THis makes it fun when you try to apply elsewhere

    http://www.medicalboard.state.ga.us/pdfs/bdmin_03_jul.pdf
     
  8. bullet

    bullet New Member

    Re: Re: Oceania University of Medicine

    Point No. 1: Is that THE REAL QUESTION or is that the QUESTION you want asked?

    Point No. 2: Are you saying that "a student" ; any "student" can earn with no more than a computer hooked up to the internet , their MD degree?

    No hospital training needed?
    No clinical practice?
    No clinical observation?
    No differencial diagnosis?
    No PBL vs Flexnarian arguments?
    No externship?
    No internship?
    No lab enviroment?
    No tests?
    No quiz?
    No rotations?
    No P.I.M.P.?
    No student-doctor / patient interaction? No "grave yard shift duty"?
    No primary care observation?
    No epidemiological studies?
    No case presentations to clinical instructors?

    Tisk.......tisk..............should I continue?

    Nada? So if I enroll in this school, as an example, I can sit at home and PRESTO!???
     
  9. TCord1964

    TCord1964 New Member

    Actually, I found info through Google search which indicates students at Oceania, along with the online component, also work with "local physician mentors and patient-based clinical rotations/placements", for what it's worth.

    I have also read information that while students may be under the impression their medical credentials from Oceania may be valid in the U.S., school officials are assuring Australian officials their credentials will only be valid in Samoa.
     
  10. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Re: Re: Oceania University of Medicine

    As I understand it, eligibility to sit for the USMLE is essentially a function of a school's appearing on the WHO list. And a World Health Organization listing is available to any medical school whose name is forwarded to Geneva by the government of a soverign state. In other words, it's a political criterion, not an academic one.

    That's why schools like these pop up in the most obscure places (often small soverign islands hungry for economic development) rather than first-world countries with established higher and medical education systems.

    There were recent stories about an off-shore medical school that set up shop on the Caribbean island of Montserrat. Its owner lambasted the island government for "bungling" its WHO listing. The government replied that it had indeed forwarded the application, but since Montserrat is a British dependent territory, the WHO wanted the island's British Governor to sign it. The Governor wouldn't oblige, sending the application to London for advice instead. London said that off-shore medical school applications in the dependent territories were being put on hold until some academic quality assurance mechanism was created.

    If SRU had opened a medical school, its 'Liberian accreditation' probably would have been enough to get it on WHO list had the Liberian ministry forwarded the school's name, and that would have qualified its students to take the USMLE.

    My personal opnion is that off-shore medical education is a complete disaster area right now.
     
  11. deanhughson

    deanhughson New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Oceania University of Medicine

    There are people who are trying to accomplish what I say but they will be called MD with no licenses probably. Next step is geting a residency and most will be skeptical about a person who didn't spend much time in medical school physically.

    agree with the one poster: much of offshore medicine is a disaster. THere are some good schools and they follow traditional methods of teaching and supervision. The use of 'mentors' isntead of clinicals in teaching hospitals particularly offends me.
     
  12. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    I agree that every single concern, negative comment, or comment which questions Oceania expressed here is both valid and sound. In my positive comments about Oceania, I was not necessarily endorsing it... though I do think highly of it as offshore med schools go, its primarily distance learning format notwithstanding. I don't think very much of offshore med schools to begin with. This is arrogant, I realize, but I think that residential, brick & mortar (B&M) U.S. med schools are the only way to go. That said, non-U.S. med schools routinely produce outstanding physicians.

    Many offshore med schools are a joke... just barely able to qualify their grads to even take, much less pass, the USMLE. All I'm saying is that Oceania, for whatever it's worth, is certainly a cut -- probably several cuts, above that. Whether Georgia -- or any other state, for that matter -- should accept Oceania graduates, no matter how well they score on the USMLE, is another matter altogether.

    All I'm saying is that Oceania is as good, from what I can tell, as any other offshore med school that is capable of producing good physicians. Oceania's impediment is not the quality of what it teach, but, perhaps, how. The problem, as far as I can determine, is the distance learning aspect of it. Those who aregue that that's simply not the right way for doctors to be trained may be onto something. I'm not sure that I could effectively argue against that position. I'm thinking it may be right.

    I should add that Oceania grads are still required to do their internships and residency rotations, just like any physician in training. That part can't be (and isn't) done by distance learning.

    In some ways, this discussion/argument is at the very heart of the general debate over whether distance learning, just generally, is or could ever be as potent and effective a learning method as traditional, residential study at a B&M institution. Becoming a physician is a hands-on sort of thing. It's difficult to even imagine how one could get a medical degree in anything but the traditional way. The ABA makes that very argument about training lawyers, too.

    I suspect that if any degree maybe cannot be as effectively earned by distance as it could be in-person, it's a medical degree.

    That said, I'm not sure the Oceania doesn't effectively overcome its delivery impediments about as well as any distance learning medical degree grantor could ever expect to do. Whether that's actually adequate is another matter altogether... and my earlier positive comments about Oceania were not necessarily intended to suggest that it is. Frankly, I just don't know if it is. I'm thinking it might not be... but I just don't know. I have a great deal of faith in distance learning when it's done properly.

    Maybe there are parts of a medical degree that arguably can be delivered via a distance learning methodology. If so, from everything I can tell, Oceania does it properly and well. But that may still not be good enough.
     
  13. IMNOEINSTEINBUT

    IMNOEINSTEINBUT New Member

    Thanks to everyone for their input. I am looking at this program because of my interest in medical training, but share much of the same concerns voiced here. Namely, can a level of competency with this program be achieved that would equal traditional programs.

    Oceania's position seems to be that utilizing a combination of distance learning in the basic science courses along with physician-mentor clinical rotations does achieve a comparable level of competency. And thus the implication is that U.S. hospitals would/will accept students for residencies, and in turn medical boards would/will grant licensure.

    The link to the Georgia Medical board in the above post certainly indicates otherwise.

    Interestingly, even those of us who are vocal proponents of distance education appear to find ourselves concerned about such a program design.

    I have written Oceania and asked some specific questions about the acceptance of their program (to date) in the U.S. particularly the status of residents and about feedback they are recieving from medical boards. I also plan on writing some of the state medical boards and I will post when I receive their replies. Thank-you
     
  14. DesElms

    DesElms New Member

    Writing to state medical boards, I want to warn you, may or may not provide reliable results... er... that is... if they're anything like state bar associations. A couple years ago I sent an email to every state bar asking three specific questions. In the case of nearly half of the states that I know, for a fact, will allow a California distance learning JD holder to sit for their bar exams, the responders incorrectly told me that said California distance learning JD holder would be ineligible... even after practicing in California for the number of years that said state's rules clearly state are required, and meeting all other qualifications stated therein, before the applicant may become eligible. I did it as an experiment to see how wrong those who answer email questions about how qualifying is non-ABA-approved legal education -- particularly distance education -- can be. It was appalling.

    Just a friendly heads-up.
     
  15. bullet

    bullet New Member

    my understanding..........

    BEFORE TERGIVERSATION...........

    My understanding of the OCEANIA program is that they have or had an office in Austrailia; and that this office "might" give the impression that Australia somehow approves or endorses the OCEANIA medical school ,when in reality it's accredited someplace else.

    It really goes back to the debate of should a school be able to rent facilities in another country for acopious training purposes. I look at it as a school selling professional educational and training services. I will leave each of you to decide: is it ethical? I don't see any illegality in it, but to some it might not be ethical.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 9, 2005
  16. bullet

    bullet New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Oceania University of Medicine

    Question: Why, what's going on with medicine that it's such a disaster?

    Why are you offended with mentors? Why is it ineffective?
     
  17. bullet

    bullet New Member

    daddy yankee

    Here is the problem Gregg;

    There is probably NOT one medical school in the world that prepares anyone for the USMLE..........................hence the birth of popular courses like KAPLAN (yes, even US medical students live and die by it).
     
  18. bullet

    bullet New Member

    JOUST

    Dean,

    I challange you to a debate, right here on DI.

    PROOF ONLY PLEASE, NO SPECULATON ALLOWED, OK?
     
  19. bullet

    bullet New Member

    Re: Re: Re: Oceania University of Medicine

    BULLET: Why?
     
  20. bullet

    bullet New Member

    GREGG , BILL , GROUP

    Gregg
    Billy Dayson
    Group

    Just a hypothetical, so please don't let your imagination run wild, ok?

    In my example, we have Juan Valdez (no, not the guy with the cute donkey in the coffee commericals), a (22) year old coffee picker, that is accepted into medical school @ and decides to enroll in the DL portion of medical school, which only covers CERTAIN PORTIONS OF BASIC SCIENCES.

    First Semester:

    General Biology
    General Chemistry
    Physics
    History of Medicine

    Second Semester:

    Cell-Mol-Bio (Cellular and Molecular Biology)
    Inorganic Chemistry
    Calculus
    History of Medicine

    Third Semester (END OF CALENDER YEAR ONE):

    Biochemistry I
    Anatomy I (Head & Neck)
    Pharmacology I
    Physiology I

    Juan Valdez goes on to complete the Basic Sciences online, except for certain components that have to be done face to face, for example:

    (a) INTRO TO CLINICAL MEDICINE
    (b) PATHOPHYSIOLOGY I and II
    (c) MEDICAL SEMIOLOGY

    The above is completed at a (regional-H) under the student-mentor program.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 9, 2005

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