Questions About Multiple Degree Programs

I have spent a lot of time on these forums trying to find answers to my questions and I still remain confused.

First off, I have a B.A. in History & Political Science, and work for a tax-policy think-tank that could reimburse me for programs such as an MTAX or iMBA from the University of Tulsa or even another school that offers an LLM in Taxation. While I'm interested in these programs from a professional standpoint, I have non-work interests that lie outside of tax policy, and over the course of many years of distance education study, I'd like to get the credentials to become a medical doctor, pharmacist, lawyer and possibly psychologist.

Due to my schedule, I cannot attend any brick-and-mortar schools nor relocate. Because I am a junior officer in my company, I do not have the time available for the mandatory week or two week residencies various schools have. All programs for me must be distance education, whether through correspondence or Internet study.

So here are my questions:

1) Because I had no science training outside of one biology course, I need to find a school that can offer me a postbaccalaureate to get me into a medical school. Are there any such programs that are solely distance learning? Location and price do not matter, and I can make the time to study the various sciences. I ust want a pre-med program that sets me up for the next step.

2) Since a posbaccalaureate will take two to four years, I'd like to know of any strictly distance education medical schools that do not offer "life experience" degrees and that I can actually use for a residency. I've read about some overseas schools being unacceptable for practice in the United States. My own internist went to school in China and had her residency in Virginia. I don't mind a foreign medical school, just as long as it's distance learning and the residency can come after the M.D. is (hopefully) granted.

3) I'd like to become a pharmacist, but it appears that the Pharm.B degree has been phased out and all online schools that offer pharmacy degrees require one to be a licensed pharmacist. These are all Pharm.D programs, and this seems like a catch-22 to me, since I can't go to an online school without already being a licensed pharmacist. I've read that Creighton University has an online program, but that they require short residencies as well as official pre-science knowledge for their program. Is there any distance education school in which I can be a licensed pharmacist, taking the necessary science and pharmacology classes through correspondence or online?

4) While my company might cover a JD, the only distance learning ones seem to be in California, such as William Howard Taft University and Abraham Lincoln University. I have read that upon graduation, I can take the California bar exam. Is this exam specific to California or is it the multi-state bar exam used by I believe 48 states?

5) While I'm interested in psychology, it's the least of the five programs I'm looking at. However, I would like to know if there are any distance education programs Psy.D programs that are reputable, but my only concern is the dissertation/clinical study since I don't believe I would be able to have the time to undertake it. Can I become a psychologist without the dissertation/clinical study or is that mandatory? If I could take a test or some other way to prove my capability, please suggest a legitimate school that offers such an option.

I know these are some extensive questions, but after spending hours trying to find answers (many conflicting), I'm hoping I can have some help here.

Thank you so much!

-Robert Henderson

 

First of all, I think you're being very unrealistic. Second of all, based on that, trust me when I tell you this, and don't make me explain:

• Pick any two and stop there. Trust me.

Personally, I'd choose the MD and JD combo, but that's just me. You'll make money hand-over-fist as a medical malpractice attorney.

Since you're requiring a distance education MD, I believe foreign (non-U.S.) is your only option. And what you're looking for is a distance education medical school -- even if it's foreign -- that will let you take the United States Medical Licensing Exam (USMLE); and whose program will then allow you (or, better yet, help you) to get into an internship and then residency program in the U.S. I believe this one will meet those needs.

First, the so-called "multi-state bar exam" means that multiple states use it -- have standardized on all or part of it -- not that once you pass it you can then be admitted to practice law in multiple states.

Every state (either the state's bar or its committee of bar examiners, or equivalent; or the state supreme court and/or whatever committee or organizational entity that it creates and appoints) controls who gets to be a lawyer in said state. Most states -- and by that I mean the vast majority of them -- require that you get a JD from a law school whose JD program is approved by the American Bar Association (ABA). The ABA expressly forbids its approved law schools to offer a JD via distance education.

While some states (Tennessee and Massachusetts, just to name two, come to mind) have some non-ABA-approved, but nevertheless state approved law schools whose JD graduates may then sit for said state's bar exam, you can count, on one hand, the number of states that do this... and you'll still have fingers left over. Graduates of such non-ABA-approved programs must generally practice law in their home state for a period of time (around 5 years, depending on the state into which one wants to transfer) before they may apply to another state to sit for its bar (or make a motion for admittance, if that's how the to-be-transferred-to state does things); and even then, only about half the states will accept the non-ABA-approved JD as requisite education, even if the applicant has been practicing in his home state for however many years the to-be-transferred-to state normally requires.

California is unique. It is the only state that has ABA-approved law schoolsl; as well as California Bar Accredited (but not ABA-approved) law schools; and -- and here's the unique part -- California Bar registered distance education JD programs... all of which qualify their graduates to sit for the California bar exam (which is, by the way, arguably the hardes bar exam of all 50 states and however many US protectorates).

If you graduate from a California Bar Accredited (but not ABA-approved) law school, you'll be in much the same boat as the graduates of non-ABA law schools in places like Tennessee and Massachusetts: You can practice in your home state with no problem, but transferring to about half the other states can only happen after you've practiced for several years; and transfer into the other half will be impossible because the JD is not ABA-approved.

If you graduate from a California Bar Registered Distance Learning JD program, it's a little worse. Most states view such a program as approximately the same as a CalBar-Accredited-but-not-ABA-approved law school; but some states (like Texas, for example) expressly forbid distance learning JD graduates to ever sit for their bar exams, no matter how many years they've been practicing... this even though they'll accept California's non-distance-learning, non-ABA-approved law school graduates after they've practiced for however long said state requires.

You could also get a distance learning LLB law degree from a distance learning law school in the UK or maybe Australia; and, if so, a few states -- like New York, for example -- will let you sit for their bar exams just the same as if your law degree had been an ABA-approved U.S. JD. Other states will let you do so, but only after you've taken at least a year or two of coursework from an ABA-approved U.S. JD program. Sill other states will allow you to do so, but only if you also get an LLM degree. It just depends on the state... and I'm not going to run down for you, here, what are each state's requirements. That's a piece of research you'll have to do yourself.

If you do enter a California distance learning JD program, the only two, in my opinion, worth considering are Northwestern California University School of Law (NWCULAW), and the one you already mentioned: William Howard Taft. Taft offers one important thing that NWCULAW doesn't: DETC accreditation. It's not a substitute for ABA-approval, but accreditation by DETC (which is approved by the US Department of Education (USDE) and its Council on Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA)) will mean that if you ever end-up in a state like Oregon (which prohibits claiming a degree within the state that isn't accredited by an agency that's USDE- and/or CHEA-approved... at least not without jumping through serious hoops), you'll be able to put your JD on your resume and business cards without breaking said state's law.

Personally, I like NWCULAW better than Taft; and, for the moment, it's cheaper, too. But the increasing number of states that are thinking about copying Oregon's way of doing things (or either already have or are starting to) is increasing. I would argue, however, that possession of the state's bar card trumps said state's accreditation requirement and, therefore, NWCULAW, as long as one will always be a member of the bar in whatever state s/he's in, would be just fine. But, to play it safe, you might want to consider the slightly more expensive, but DETC-accredited Taft.

Kaplan's Concord School of Law is the only other DETC-accredited distance learning law school in California... but it's much more expensive; has literally thousands of students and will, therefore, be statistically more likely to treat you like cattle; and has a long list of both graduates and drop-outs who will tell you that its unscrupulous and unethical and has committed a raft of abominations. Many of their stories, I will tell you, are true. Some, of course, are just sour grapes. I would stay away from Concord... but that's just me.

Regardless, if you get your JD from a California CalBar-registered, bar-eligible, distance learning law school like Taft or NWCULAW, you can only practice state law in California for at least a few years... except for Wisconsin, which will let anyone sit for its bar as long as s/he's a member of some other state's bar, regardless how long. And Wisconsin seems not to have a problem with the JD being from a non-ABA-approved school; or one that's distance learning.

Additionally, technically, a CalBar-registered distance learning JD holder can -- even without first being a member of California's bar (or any state's bar, for that matter -- practice certain kinds of law (like, for example, immigration law, or social security law, etc.) before certain federal tribunals... maybe even in states other than California, depending on the tribunal itself. But be very, very, very careful about that one, though. It's very, very easy to accidentally counsel someone on matters of state law while you're doing so with regard to the particular kind of federal law you're authorized to practice. If you make that kind of mistake, you can be charged with, and convicted of, the Unauthorized Practice of Law (UPL) by the state you're in... and that can be very serious, indeed. And, once convicted of such a thing, your chances of ever becoming a real lawyer in any state drop to roughly zero. UPL is the one former conviction that most states will not tolerate at all in one of their lawyers. So never, ever even think of messing with something like that, if you want to take my advice.

Or at least some unrealistic ones. They're impressive and hopeful, mind you... but unrealistic.

I tried.

 

Mr. DesElms,

Thank you for your excellent reply enlightening me on possible degree options.

Being a recent college graduate, I do want professional degrees, primarly the MD and the JD. The MTAX and MBA are already taken care of by my company should I choose to get those degrees and move up within the company, and possibly the William Howard Taft JD that my company might cover as well, although they might have problems with the DETC and non-ABA approval.

It is my personal hobbies I wish to pursue, and while I think I have thirty years in which I can do distance education courses on my free time, perhaps you're correct in thinking I'm too ambitious. It's just that my interests run in getting advanced degrees in the medical and legal professions.

As for the links you provided me, which I am grateful for, I learned the Oceania Medical School requires an "Introduction to Medicine" program either at Becker College in Worcester, MA or Harcum College in Bryn Mawr, PA. The latter is cloest to me, but bsaed on the schedule, I could not attend since it requires in-person attendance.

I will look into the William Howard Taft University program, and I am still weighing whether to let my company cover the University of Tulsa programs.

If you have any further advice I'd love to read it.

Thank you for your help!

-Robert Henderson

 

I can't speak as to medicine.

As for your J.D...don't do this. Don't.

A J.D., however earned, is an enormous investment in time and money. It is a big, big deal. Doing it "wrong", meaning in a nontraditional way, is likely to cost you in ways you cannot predict.

If you were a California resident and had absolutely no intention of ever leaving the Golden State and if you were SURE that you didn't want to pursue certain high priced career options, I'd unbend enough to suggest a California Bar accredited resident law school.

If in addition you were middle aged or older without much realistic chance of making a career in academia, AND if you had a proven record of self study success over a period of YEARS, I'd unbend a bit further and agree that a D/L law degree might be appropriate.

But you don't appear to meet any of these criteria.

If you want to be a lawyer (and that's really the main reason for getting a J.D.), do it right. Go for the full time resident ABA program that best meets your professional goals. You will in this way keep your options as open as possible for as long as possible.

 

Dear Nosborne,

I appreciate your advice in not pursuing a JD program through distance education. I have a lot of respect for professionals who are physicians and lawyers because of all the in-person programs, studying , writing, and exams. Due to my job, I cannot take that time to go back to school, and I guess the problem is that my interests in becoming a physician, pharmacist, lawyer or psychologist through distance education go far beyond the programs offered at legitimate distance education schools.

With the pace of technology, I hope one day distance education will be an accepted means of learning for all professional degrees. I'm pleased some employers and institutions accept certain distance education degrees already, but I fear the reputation of a few bad apples and diploma mills has caused harm to the distance education system which might take years to rectify.

Thank you for your candor in advising me not to get an online J.D.

-Robert Henderson

 

Robert,
You are quite possibly the single most ambitious poster I have ever seen on these forums, and I was a lurker for YEARS before posting myself! Two points:

1.) You live in Washington D.C., the epicenter of prestigious law schools with part-time programs (such as Georgetown). You can go evenings, you can go weekends, you can take half a decade or longer to finish your JD. I can't help but think that for all of the above posts' reasons, almost any part-time B&M law school taken at your own pace will be better for someone livin' in the big city. A JD from these schools will never be a problem, even if it took you 6 years of Saturdays to finish it. Given the current restrictions on DL legal education, online you could spend more, work harder, and have less to show for it. If you are giving yourself 30 years for part-time study, a B&M law degree is worth considering.

2.) Unless you hope for a page in the Guiness Book, is a totally online professional education in so many diverse fields really a goal in itself? I regularly defend the ability of DL to be a superlative way to get an education, but I'm not sure I would be excited about a JD/MD/Psy.D/Pharm.D who never had to leave the home office. Just a thought--I see some boomerang potential even if you succeed in this great ambition.

 

Dear Steve,

I must say I'm honored to be in your opinion the most ambitious poster on here. However, I should add that I'm a believer in learning and given the pace of technology, the degrees I want I should be able to get through distance learning eventually.

Living in the Washington, DC area, I know I have tons of schools I can try for a degree. There are two main problems. As a junior officer in my company, I work at night, when most of the adult-classes at places such as Georgetown take place, and second, schooling in this area is so expensive that my plan is to take whatever my company offers first (90% reimbursement) for their approved programs and then move on to the professional degrees I seek.

The MTAX and MBA would be covered, possibly an LLM in Taxation or a JD, maybe even an MA in government or political science since we do work with state, federal and international governments, but that's a tricky issue since it's primarily tax policy that's followed. But for a MD or Psy.D I'm on my own for those. And my plan is to get the ones my company covers first, use the raises from earning the MTAX, MBA, LLM, JD, and then go from there.

Thank you for your advice!

-Robert Henderson

 

I just did a quick check of the Georgetown site, and they have JD courses at all kinds of odd times, day, evening , Saturdays, and best of all announcements that this exam or that exam was being replaced by a take-home exam. In my experience, working full-time 9-5 was the worst way to go to school, so I think you might be at something of an advantage working evenings or even overnights and taking your pick of the daytime JD classes. You would probably have the biggest selection overall.