UofL LLB and want to practice Law in Tampa

Hi,

I currently live in Trinidad and am in my final year of my UofL LLB degree. I recently visited Tampa and am very interested in residing and practicing law there, however I am completely clueless as to what steps I need to take after I complete the LLB in order to become an attorney in Tampa. I did some research and have read various requirements which need to be fulfilled such as the JD and the LPC, however I have no real details as to what to do in order to become an attorney in Tampa.

If anyone can help me, I'll be grateful.

Thanks,
Tampa Hopeful

 

I believe you need at least 1 yr of law school in the US to sit for the bar. That's what the majority of non-taxation LLMs are for in the United States: to give foreign-educated lawyers a chance to practice in the U.S.

Here's a guide to LLM programs: http://www.llm-guide.com

Beyond that, I don't know. First place to start is the Florida State Bar's website or the State of Florida attorney licensing whatever-they-call-it.

 

I lived in Tampa -- in a roomy, four-bedroom ranch on Davis Island, right downtown -- for not-quite three years while working on a project that was mostly there, and a little bit over near Orlando. A second, unplanned project, before I finally left that state, popped-up in Sarasota and also took me down/over to Miami a little... so I got a chance to get to know all of those communities a little better than the typical traveler.

Tampa's a little different from many Florida cities/towns because it's not so tied to the tourist trade. Therefore, it's alot like most any other American city of similar size, except it enjoys Florida weather. Gotta' like that. The employment situation, however, is not terrific in Tampa... always keep that in mind. And, though recruiting employers in Florida will tout the fact that the state has no state income tax (and will make it sound, therefore, like you will be able to pocket the amount you would have paid in state income tax if it existed), the truth is that Florida employers just end-up paying that much less in wages/salary. So there's actually no benefit; and the employers in that state end-up paying, on average, less than other similarly-populated and industried states. The no state income tax thing is a joke; and the state underpays because of it! That one really irritated me; and was a huge reason why I did not stay once my projects were over.

As a Chicago-area boy, myself, Florida's work ethic, generally, was also disturbing. Some of the work I did there included structured cabling projects of various sizes, so I had the opportunity to hire cable installation crews there. Nearly to the last of them, their attitude about showing-up on time, early, and ready to work, was, more or less, "Look... I'm up... I'm dressed... I'm here; what more do you want from me?" I conducted many Chicago-style reality orientations on the laid-back Florida technology workers I had to hire.

And there's the fact that you'll quite often be the youngest person in the room by an average of many years. It's a retirement state, after all... although Tampa, as not quite the retirement destination as many other Florida cities, isn't quite so bad in that regard. But you will still, many times, be in traffic behind a very slow moving Cadillac or Lincoln and suddenly you'll notice that no one appears to be driving. Then, on second look -- if you look closely -- you'll see a pair of little hands atop the steering wheel. No head -- or even just the top of one -- above/higher-than the headrest/top-of-the-seatback, mind you ('cause the little ol' lady driver's too short)... but at least hands and the steering wheel. It's an optical illusion that takes some getting used to.

Then, finally, as long as I'm listing downsides, there's the fact that if it weren't for Florida, Al Gore would have become president in 2000 instead of Bush43; and, therefore, how much I now hate that state because of it... but I won't get into that particular lament here. [grin]

When it comes to lawyers, though, here's something you need to know about Florida: If you didn't graduate from a Florida law school, and if you're not a Florida resident, they don't want you to come there and practice law. Period.

Oh, they won't just up and say it, of course... but trust me when I tell you that Florida is very chilly toward out-of-state lawyers (or lawyer-hopefuls) wishing to come into that state and practice law there. It's mostly because Florida has, for so long, been a retirement destination. Florida tightened-up its requirements for out-of-state lawyers & lawyer-hopefuls because it didn't want lawyers retiring from other states to Florida, hanging-out a shingle and practicing part-time and, therefore, taking business away from full-time Florida lawyers who are natives of that state.

I'm not saying you can't get in. All I'm saying is that Florida will not make it easy for you. I'd have to look it up, but I do not believe you can sit for Florida's bar exam with the London external LLB degree. You'd need a US JD degree, I believe. But that may not be the problem that you think it is. One of Florida's oldest and most revered law schools may give you approximately one year's worth of credit for your LLB toward a US JD degree that will let you sit for the Florida bar. And that's probably a good thing for you anyway since a UK LLB, while based on the same British Common Law system as is used in the U.S., doesn't really prepare you (as does a US JD program) to take any US state's bar exam. You really will need those two years of US JD training to have a prayer of doing particularly well on Florida's bar exam.

And it may be more do-able than you think. If, for example, you're single, you could move to Tampa and live quite cheaply in a rented room in a nice home (as a sort of border, I suppose you'd call it) in a nice neighborhood somewhere while you work and go to school at Stetson... and in only two years you'd have your JD and could sit for Florida's bar exam.

I know so much about this not only because I thought very seriously of staying in Tampa and going to Stetson; but also because I considered reducing my expenses, if I had, by renting-out two of my four bedrooms in that house on Davis Island to international Stetson students who would have been doing precisely as I described in the previous paragraph. Doing so would have reduced my monthly rent & utilities to less than $500... and it would have been even cheaper for them (this was back in 1998, 1999 and 2000, I should add... so I'm sure prices are higher now). I had even gone so far as to have found some candidates... similar to you, in fact. But I ended-up changing my mind and leaving that state for a variety of reasons... none of which I now regret. But I'm digressing again.

Check-out Stetson University College of Law's International Program. Stetson has a Tampa campus; and it will (or may) accept your LLB in transfer into the JD program and grant up to 29 credits toward it, thereby cutting the normally-three-year Stetson JD program down to just two years.

From the Stetson web site's admissions page:

• International Applicants
  
  International students applying for admission to the J.D. program must meet certain additional requirements. All applicants whose native language is not English and who have not completed an undergraduate degree at an English-speaking institution must submit a TOEFL test score of no less than 600 on the paper-based test or at least 250 on the computer-based test. TOEFL scores are valid for three years. For TOEFL information, visit www.toefl.org
  
  Applicants who received their undergraduate degree outside the United States, Puerto Rico or Canada should not register for the LSDAS service without checking with LSDAS to determine whether the school meets its criteria. If the school does not meet the criteria, the applicant must have his or her academic records evaluated at his or her expense by an evaluation agency associated with the National Association of Credential Evaluation Services Inc. (NACES). Access the list of NACES members online at www.naces.org/members.htm. For information on the LL.M. in International Law, visit http://www.law.stetson.edu/international.
  
  
  Foreign Attorneys
  
  The Associate Dean of Academics may grant an admitted J.D. applicant who holds a foreign law degree up to 29 academic credits toward a Stetson J.D. degree. The credits may be used to satisfy any of the College of Law's area requirements or may count as elective credits. The candidate will be required to submit a translation and/or evaluation of his or her transcript. Please refer to http://www.law.stetson.edu/admissions/process.htm for more information. You may also call the Office of Admissions at (727) 562-7802 to speak with a counselor.

Hope that helps.

 

entonces?

So which states are friendly towards a foreign law Degree?

 

Guys I thank you for all the help, however I am getting 2 separate conclusions on what to do or what is supposed to happen. Anyone knows any lawyer or any firms in Tampa I can contact to get some more precise information?

Thanks,

 

LLB & Practising in FL

You might want to send an e-mail to George Pappas. He's a graduate of U of L's LLB program and based in the US. He seems to have a lot of info. I'm not suggesting that you enrol in any of his courses...just send him an e-mail & see what he says.

http://www.legaltutors.com/Welcome%20to%20ICLS_files/default.htm

Best of luck to you.

 

Who wrote this in 1999; and which includes these four good points:

1. As a rule, most States will not accept your London LL.B. as meeting the educational eligibility of the their respective Bar Admission Rules.
   
2. As a rule, most States will require a US JD Law Degree from an American Bar Association (ABA) approved law school.
   
3. As a rule, if you are a lawyer from a common law jurisdiction, with three to five years active practice within that jurisdiction, most states will allow you to apply for an attorney's examination, or as in the case of Pennsylvania, allow you to sit their Bar with an additional 24 credits from an ABA School.
   
4. As a rule, if you earned your law degree from a non-common law jurisdiction, your chances of being either allowed to take a State Bar examination or to apply for a lawyers application to practice in a specific State, will be difficult at best.[/list=1]Some things have changed since 1999, but it's a pretty good piece, overall... certainly well worth reading the entire thing.
   
   
   First of all, Tampa's got nothing to do with it. It's a state issue... the entire state of Florida goes by one set of rules. The city has no bearing, one way or another.
   
   At any rate, as to precision... fine. I just looked it up. Here's the straight skinny...
   
   The holder of a foreign LLB (i.e., from a non-US law school not approved by the ABA) may not sit for the Florida bar exam on the strength of said LLB. Only those who hold a JD from an ABA-approved law school may sit for Florida's bar exam. An exception exists for already-licensed attorneys who have practiced for at least 10 consecutive years in some other US jurisdiction, and who provide Florida with representative samples of work product for each of the aforementioned 10 years. Such attorneys may request permission, by motion, to sit for Florida's bar exam.
   
   NOTE: I once wrote around here that one could be admitted on motion, without exam, after 10 years of practice elsewhere; and after submitting 10 years worth of work product samples. However, recently (while arguing about the Florida bar and California DL JD holders in another thread) I realized that I skimmed-over the words too quickly; and that the word "motion" referred to a motion to allow one to take the bar exam, not a motion to admit without exam. My bad.
   
   Holders of a foreign LLB degree may get said LLB evaluated and based on said evaluation a substantial credit on account of said LLB may be transferred-in to an ABA-approved JD program (as the Stetson international program, to which I referred you, above, will allow); but the bottom line is that that ABA-approved JD must be obtained before one may sit for the Florida bar. Period.
   
   Additionally, Florida specifically excludes holders of LLM degrees -- even if they're from ABA-approved law schools -- from sitting for its bar exam. One should be advised, further, that there is no such thing as an ABA-approved LLM degree. The ABA approves the JD. That's it. The phrase, "LLM from an ABA-approved law school" does not mean that the LLM, itself, is ABA-approved. The phrase, "ABA-approved law school" means that said school's JD program -- and no other program -- is ABA-approved. The correct way to say it is that it's an LLM from a law school whose JD program is ABA-approved. That's actually the only way it can be said. Any LLM from a law school whose LLM is ABA-approved must, in order to be accredited at all, be accredited in some other way, by some other accreditor. Moreover, the ABA strongly recommends against any state allowing anyone to sit for its bar exam, or be admitted on motion, solely on the basis of his/her holding an LLM from a law school whose JD program is ABA-approved (sometimes mistakenly referred-to as an ABA-approved LLM).
   
   Bottom line: No foreign LLB holder has a chance in hell of being admitted to the Florida bar...
   
   ...that is, unless, of course, s/he goes and gets an ABA-approved JD degree -- by, for example, entering the Stetson International program -- which would change everything. It (or at least something like it at some other ABA-approved law school... including ABA-approved law schools outside of Florida) is the only way in to the Florida bar for foreign LLB holders. Period.
   
   I pretty much knew it, but hadn't reviewed it recently enough to say for sure... like I am now. But that's why I suggested the Stetson program. I knew, in my gut, that that (or at least something like it) is what you'd need.
   
   Sorry the news couldn't be better. At the same time, I stand by what I said earlier: A UofL LLB holder really does need some formal study in a US law program before daring to sit for any state's bar. You can get credit for the first (of the three) years of the JD program on the strength of your UofL LLB. That's not bad. And the 2nd and 3rd year -- and the Florida bar review courses for which you will, no doubt, sign up -- will do you good. To be candid, I think this is just about the right outcome, all things considered. But that's just me.

 

Thanks for correcting my misinformation, Gregg. I do know that in spite of what the ABA says, there are jurisdictions that allow one to sit for the Bar with a foreign degree and an LLM from an ABA school. I just don't know what jurisdictions they are--or how many they number--off the top of my head. Osborne might know.

 

Oh and by the way, Tampa Hopeful, if you've gotten this far through the grueling UoL LLB, congrats to you--not a bad achievement. Now go find youself a jurisdiction that only requires a U.S. LL.M. or do the Stetson thing and go get 'em in Florida.

One more thing: if you get set up in a jurisdiction that allows you to sit with a U.S. LL.M. only in addition to the LL.B., you might consider the UConn online LL.M. It's not a "general U.S. practice LL.M. for foreign lawyers"--I think it's in real estate law-- but it might be the ticket in some jurisdictions (that is, unless they require an ABA J.D. for admission--I haven't looked).

Do you happen to have some insight on this Gregg? In those jurisdictions that allow one to sit with a foreign degree plus an LL.M. from an ABA, does the content of the LL.M. matter?

And how do you know so much about the law?

 

LLB-friendly (or not) US states

If you define "friendly" as the state in question being willing to accept a foreign LLB as requisite either for its holder to sit for said state's bar exam, or to be admitted on motion without exam, either on its face, or under certain conditions (which may include evaluating it and requiring some additional education at an ABA-approved law school); and said conditions varying widely from state to state, then it can fairly be said that the following states score thusly:

• Alabama: Friendly
• Alaska: Friendly
• Arizona: Unfriendly
• Arkansak: Unfriendly
• California: Friendly
• Colorada: Friendly
• Connecticut: Friendly
• Delaware: Unfriendly
• Dist of Combia: Friendly
• Florida: Unfriendly
• Georgia: Unfriendly
• Hawaii: Friendly
• Idaho: Unfriendly
• Illinois: Friendly
• Indiana: Friendly
• Iowa: Unfriendly
• Kansas: Unfriendly
• Kentucky: Friendly
• Louisiana: Friendly
• Maine: Friendly
• Maryland: Friendly
• Massachusetts: Friendly
• Michigan: Friendly
• Minnesota: Unfriendly
• Mississippi: Unfriendly
• Missouri: Unfriendly
• Montana: Unfriendly
• Nebraska: Unfriendly
• Nevada: Friendly
• New Hampshire: Friendly
• New Jersey: Unfriendly
• New Mexico: Friendly
• New York: Friendly
• North Carolina: Friendly
• North Dakota: Unfriendly
• Ohio: Friendly
• Oklahoma: Unfriendly
• Oregon: Friendly
• Pennsylvania: Friendly
• Rhode Island: Friendly
• South Carolina: Unfriendly
• North Carolina: Unfriendly
• Tennessee: Friendly
• Texas: Friendly
• Utah: Friendly
• Vermont: Friendly
• Virginia: Friendly
• Washington: Friendly
• West Virginia: Friendly
• Wisconsin: Friendly
• Wyoming: Unfriendly
• Guam: Unfriendly
• No. Mariana Islands: Unfriendly
• Palau: Friendly
• Puerto Rico: Friendly
• Virgin Islands: Unfriendly

Don't be misled by this list. Some of the requirements of the foreign LLB holder even in states that are "friendly" are so onerous that that term is almost a misnomer. That said, other "friendly" states practically accept the foreign LLB as if it were a US JD.

The "unfriendly" states, in any case, simply reject the foreign LLB, out of hand. Just forget about it in those states. That, we know, for sure.

What the above list really is, is an indication of which states flat-out say "no" (i.e., the ones labeled "unfriendly"), versus which states may not say "no," but in many cases aren't exactly welcoming the LLB with open arms, either; or which do exactly that... depending on which "friendly" state we're talkin' about (i.e., the ones labeled "friendly").

In the end, though, regardless what the above list says, you really must consult the state bar; or the state's committee of bar examiners (or equivalent); or the state's supreme court, as appropriate, to find out precisely what are that state's rules regarding the admission of foreign LLB degree holders to the practice of law in said state. You must do that, and not rely on anything you read here!

AND REMEMBER: The above list is regarding the LLB, not the LLM. The latter (i.e., which states permit a foreign LLB holder who also has an LLM from a US law school whose JD is ABA-approved to sit for the bar on the strength of said LLM) is a different list altogether... and, fortunately, a shorter one. Those states are: Arizona, California (conditionally), Connecticut (conditionally), Michigan (conditionally), New Hampshire, New York (contitionally), North Carolina, Rhode Island, Tennessee (conditionally), Virginia (conditionally), and Palau.

Not that I noticed, but that doesn't mean it doesn't in perhaps some state, somewhere. The truth is that I just didn't dig that deeply into that particular question because I confess to not caring... not because it isn't worth wondering about, I suppose but, rather, because I so agree with the ABA that an LLM should never be the qualification that permits one to sit for the bar. But the list of states is short, as you can see, above. That bit of research wouldn't take long. And that sort of reinforces my earlier point: I'm not the one on whose research anyone should rely. The LLB and/or LLM holder really needs to consult the law in the jurisdiction in question and see for himself/herself.

Hope that helps!

 

From the ABA web site:

• A Note to Graduates of Law Schools Located Outside the United States:
  Degrees Other Than a J.D. and Bar Admissions
  
  In order to obtain a license to practice law in the United States, all candidates must apply for bar admission through a state board of bar examiners. Although this board is ordinarily an agency of the highest court in the jurisdiction, occasionally the board is connected to the state's bar association. The criteria for eligibility to take the bar examination or to otherwise qualify for bar admission are set by each state, not by the ABA or the Council of the Section of Legal Education and Admissions to the Bar.
  
  In order to sit for the bar examination, most states require an applicant to hold a Juris Doctor (J.D.) degree from a law school that meets established educational standards. A J.D. earned at an ABA-approved law school meets the educational requirements in every jurisdiction in the United States. For those individuals who have not earned a J.D. degree from an ABA-approved law school, bar admission authorities have developed varying requirements and criteria to ascertain if such individuals meet the minimum educational requirements for bar admission. In most jurisdictions individuals who lack such a J.D. will find that they do not satisfy the minimum educational requirements for bar admission and are ineligible to take the bar exam. In some of the remaining states, graduates of foreign law schools will find that additional schooling such as an LL.M. is required, and a few others recognize with regularity the sufficiency of a specific foreign legal education. A number offer an alternative licensure mechanism known as a Foreign Legal Consultant which is a limited license to practice. And finally, some jurisdictions will allow individuals to be eligible for admission without examination under certain conditions if they have been admitted to the bar in another U.S. jurisdiction.
  
  In the past few years, there has been a large increase in the number of graduates from schools located outside the United States enrolled in advanced degree programs (such as the LL.M.). In fact, roughly half of all the individuals currently enrolled in LL.M. programs are graduates of foreign law schools. Upon graduating, many of these individuals return to their home country without seeking or obtaining bar licensure in the United States. However, an increasing number of these individuals seek to be admitted to a state bar.
  
  Unlike the J.D. degree bestowed by an ABA-approved law school, which carries the indicia that the holder of that degree has completed a course of study imparting standards entitling him or her to engage in the practice of law, advanced degree programs at ABA-approved law schools are not regulated, and thus, not "approved." As a result, such degrees vary in content and rigor. In other words, the American Bar Association does NOT accredit degrees of any kind other than the J.D.
  
  It is the position of the Council of the Section of Legal Education and Admissions to the Bar of the American Bar Association that no graduate degree in law (LL.M., M.C.L., S.J.D., etc.) is or should be a substitute for the first professional degree in law (J.D.) and that no graduate degree should substitute for the J.D. in order to meet the legal education requirements for admission to the bar.
  
  As a result of the variance in state bar admission rules, the ABA strongly encourages individuals to contact the state board of bar examiners in the state(s) in which they are interested in being admitted to ascertain its requirements to sit for the bar examination. Contact information and a summary of bar admission requirements for all U.S. jurisdictions is available in the Section's Comprehensive Guide to Bar Admission Requirements publication which is available through the ABA Service Center at 800.285-2221, Product Code: 5290087 (02ED).

Just some additional information... seemed relevant. [shrug]

 

But you still didn't tell me, o Solomonesque moderator, how you know so much about these things. Did you at one time work in the leagl arena or attend law school?

 

Dr. Fauss-tus,

I looked at UConn Law's web site a few weeks ago and found no mention of their D/L LL.M., in insurance or anything else.

It USED to be there; I saw it a year ago or so. Do you know whether the program still exists?

U.S. D/L LL.M. programs, whether from ABA schools or UA schools, seem to have a high mortality rate!

 

Yeah, it still exists, but few graduate.

http://www.law.uconn.edu/academics/ilc/distlrn.html

 

Thank you.

What they are up against, I suspect, is that a J.D. is all anyone really needs in the U.S.

Tampa Hopeful,

If you decide to go the ABA LL.M. route, some states will be happy with any LL.M. from an ABA accredited school but I would recommend completing an LL.M. from one of the many programs available in American law for foreign trained lawyers.

1) U of L taught you nothing about our constitutional law, federal court system, civil procedure, evidence or criminal process. You will need a thorough understanding of these things to pass the Bar and practice law.

2) Some of the states that accept an LL.M. have specific coursework requirments that these programs are designed to meet.

You may find it hard to transfer your London LL.B. credits into an American J.D. program because the ABA system doesn't like D/L legal education. The LL.M. programs are not ABA regulated, so it will likely be easier to get into an LL.M. program at an ABA school.

One last note: The U.K. LL.B. is NOT the same thing as an American J.D. even within the U.K. system itself. A year in an American Law for Foreign Lawyers LL.M. program will not be a waste of your time.

2

 

Greg, I always known you are smart, but until now I did not know you are brilliant. Actually, don't feel bad as I am a resident of the buckeye state and always vote there since I can not vote for the President here in Puerto Rico. Last election I spent over a $1,000.00 going to Ohio to vote for Kerry. So I guess this time around we are the state to blame for GWB. Ironically, when I lived in the Dominican Republic it was easier for me to vote for the President. All I had to do was to go to the US Consulate and vote with an absentee valot. (did I spell it corectly?)

Take Care!

 

Absentee ballot.

Unless you meant absentee valet, where your vote would be tallied by a manservant who wasn't tending to his master.

 

Thanks!

Check out "The Lawyer's Career Change Handbook" by Hindi Greenberg. This book will show you how to make a living with a law degree, even without a bar exam.

 

Re: LLB-friendly (or not) US states

North Carolina has amended their bar rules and no longer allows a holder of a foreign LLB to sit the bar exam on the strength of an LLM degree. This change went into effect as of August 2005. It's interesting to note that this is the second time in roughly a decade the NC Bar has made educational requirements more restrictive, guess the current crop of lawyers isn't interested in dealing with any competition.

http://www.ncbar.com/rules/rul_sel.asp?ID=378&BACK='rul_adv.asp?type=R'&LIST=title&type=R

 

I think they commenced making this change right after George Pappas (of www.malet.com ) got admitted on the strength of a London external LL.B. and a Widener LL.M.