Distance MBAs Mentioned in Wall Street Journal

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by CocoGrover, Sep 21, 2005.

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  1. CocoGrover

    CocoGrover New Member

  2. decimon

    decimon Well-Known Member

    We don't need no stinking skills.

    Do MBA programs "build skills" at all?
     
  3. DTechBA

    DTechBA New Member

    Ditto

    Some time back another survey of corporate human service professionals indicated many did not believe an MBA provided much of a skill boost at all. I guess a survey can say what one wants it to say....
     
  4. little fauss

    little fauss New Member

    I would like to see one of these surveys break out B&M online or DL MBAs from the for-profits. I can't fathom that a distance MBA from Duke or Indiana or Arizona State (or maybe even UMass) would be considered "not at all effective" by recruiters.

    As for the efficacy of the MBA, I don't think in many cases that it's intended to be much of a skill booster. It gives more of a general overview, on an advanced level (at least in theory), so that the person with the degree is then qualified to manage those who really do have the skill sets.

    Does my class in Management of Technology qualify me to sit down and write a line of code for a company?

    Do Managerial and Financial Accounting qualify me to balance a corporation's books and prepare their balance sheets, financials, Income Statements, etc?

    Does a class or two in Marketing or HR Management qualify me to develop the next great marketing plan for a corporation or to develop HR SOPs?

    No, perish the thought. Those tasks are performed by people who typically have UG degrees in the subject matter with at least 30-60 credit hours on topic. These skilled people then serve an apprenticeship, so to speak, by working in a bottom-rung position for a few years and learning under the tutelage of one who actually knows how to do something (and these people may have no college education at all).

    The MBA doesn't build all that many skills in any particular area, it just gives an overview of many areas that make a business go, acquaints the student with the nomenclature. In theory, they are then better able to manage the actual "doers".

    I don't think an MBA is much more than an overview.
     
  5. mcdirector

    mcdirector New Member

    This article also makes the distinction between full-time (preferred) vs part time MBA students. Man -- this irritates me. I always thought that education was to educate in some form or fashion, not to have to leave the life I've established to get that education.

    My sons have/are going to grad school right out of college and are going full time. I'm glad to know that gives them an edge. BUT I can't believe that they have a greater knowledge base than the poor guy/gal who had to go to school at night while holding down a full time job and raising a family.

    I can also say that when I entered my MEd program, I got to use what I was exposed to in the class. I knew immediately what would and would not work. The people in my classes with no classroom experience didn't have a clue and didn't have a place to in which to experiment with the info given.
     
  6. little fauss

    little fauss New Member

    This article seems to be more a matter of snobbery on the part of recruiters who earned their degrees in the traditional manner. Anytime you read a quote from someone to the effect that: "Well, I've had colleagues who did their MBAs PT, and they just didn't have the skill sets to interact in a team setting", you start getting the idea that they basically have nothing to support their thesis, and so are reduced to a handful of pitiful anecdotes. But had they paid a mite of attention in their stats class(es) in B-school rather than spending all their time in marathon partying (ahem, networking) sessions, perhaps they'd realize how utterly bankrupt such "proofs" are.

    It was a pretty good article from the perspective of exposing the biases among recruiters against PT, Exec, or DL MBAs, and this is a factor that must be considered, but that doesn't make it right, nor does it mean that this bias will persist and continue to rear its ugly--and largely inaccurate--head forever. The WSJ article would've had more authority had it also cited the surveys (there's more than one) that demonstrate that there is no substantial difference in competence or knowledge between one earning an MBA DL and one earning an MBA FT, then asked these enlightened recruiters for their comments thereupon. My guess is that for the most part, the recruiters would've said something to the effect of: "Well I don't care about any surveys or studies, don't bother me with the facts; I've seen these people, and they just don't measure up, I mean, you know, Mary in the office got her MBA online and she's such a little socially inept backstabber."

    Did I mention that I wasn't impressed with the attitudes and comments of the recruiters that were interviewed? :)
     
  7. -kevin-

    -kevin- Resident Redneck

    I find it interesting that technology, acceptance of technology, management of technology, management of technology workers,etc... are all core business concepts and essential to national and global expansion. Yet somehow the author finds the use of technology for learning as lacking or unacceptable?

    I also find it interesting that the article comments on the agressive student finding a way to attend school full-time as somehow better prepared than a part-time student with a full-time job.

    Bottom line, folks who went in residence expect in resdence and the bias is not well disguised.
     
  8. little fauss

    little fauss New Member

    The bias is silly.

    The only things these recruiters could come up with was:

    a). Personal Anecdotes - Which mean just one-half step above nothing at all. (And as an aside, I wonder if these recruiters ever came across the phrase "confrmation bias" in their stats studies?);

    b). Conclusory Statements - That are as ridiculous as they are naive, such as the rant about the "rich experience" of an FT MBA with its networking that extended to the pub and sports outings. (Is that what it's all about? Sitting around a bar or going to a ball game? That's absurd on its face. If networking is your holy grail, then go out and join a networking club and a professional society or two in your chosen field; you'll get the same experience--and not just from fellow know-nothing students, but from students, established professionals, and executives in your field--only better, and for a lot cheaper than the tuition and opportunity cost of a FT MBA!); and

    c). Personal Opinions - The unintentionally humorous spectacle of these twenty or thirty-something recruiters playing Solomon and waxing philosophical about what a real educational experience is, leaving aside the fact that probably not a one who was quoted had any significant online educational experience--or any at all for that matter--to provide a frame of reference for their "wisdom".

    Let me put it this way: Unlike perhaps everyone interviewed in that story, I have experienced both. I went to a top-tier law school and attended every single class in person; I'm now starting my second year of online studies for an MBA at UMass. I can state unequivocally that the latter is every bit the rigorous exercise as the former. And I was one of those loumouths in law school who loved hearing my own voice in classroom discussions (anyone surprised?). And yet, I'm getting a lot more out of the online discussions at UMass-Isenberg. Now that may be anecdotal, but I'll tell you that at least it's supported by the experience of having seen both sides of the coin, unlike those quoted in the article.
     
  9. novemberdude

    novemberdude New Member

    I have to applaud Little Fauss for this post. It mirrors my own experience (which is in a non MBA context).

    I did my undergraduate degree in business at an AACSB school with absolutely no online component. I have since studied via distance toward an LLB at UoL (incomplete) and an presently working on an LLM at Northumbria. The DL experience has been in my opinion more demanding and more educationally rewarding, basically because I spent all my undergraduate time at bars and sporting events (too bad I didn't know it was networking. Sadly no one told my profs that it should not have reflected so negatively in my GPA).

     
  10. little fauss

    little fauss New Member

    I did a bit of that "networking" myself. And I can't say it did me a bit of good.

    And if I'm ever again in a position where I'm hiring people, I'll have a bias towards those who worked their butts off days, then studied nights and weekends to get their degree online or PT. I have read that some recruiters are actually expressing similar biases, and reacting against the "party boy/girl" stereotype of the FT traditional MBA.

    The whole notion expressed by those recruiters is silly.

    Let's look at it the way it was posed by the recruiters and flesh it out. First, you have your FT MBA student. They learn team interaction face-to-face in the classroom or the student lounge area. This is a rich and rewarding experience--just ask them. Why, to listen to them, they get such a deep, full immersion in the study of business (of course, it isn't, exactly, in a business that they get it--it's in a classroom; and there isn't, exactly, anything at all riding on their decisions made in their group projects--just a letter grade; and it isn't, exactly, learned from full time businessmen and entrepreneurs who actually run businesses--it's learned from full-time college professors, some of whom have never worked for a single private enterprise in their lives, and from fellow students--perhaps in the bars and at the games, quite a rewarding educational experience) that it goes far beyond that those plebes who must resort to PT or DL MBA studies.

    Now, let us look at the relatively "paltry" educational experience of the PT or DL MBA learner. They typically work full time. Forty to sixty hours a week most of them work in an actual team environment; they go to meetings where they meet with--gasp--actual teams in real actual businesses! They make decisions--or implement decisions made by superiors--that in many cases have the very fate of the business--or some part thereof--riding on them. While the FT MBA student in slaving away in the student lounge or at the pub exchanging profound statements upon the very nature of business (or the hotness of the babe/stud at the end of the bar), the PT or DLer is actually doing...real business stuff! What an interesting and fascinating concept! And then this "teamwork-challenged" PT or DLer (who just happens, of course, to work in a REAL TEAM ENVIRONMENT, FOR WHARTON'S SAKE!), then brings his/her experiences about actual teamwork and actual businesses to the classroom discussions. And sometimes, they do a fair-to-midland job of educating the professor and informing their BUSINESS THEORIES with REAL WORLD BUSINESS EXPERIENCES.

    And so, there you have it.

    And applause back to you, novemberdude.
     
  11. bing

    bing New Member

    Funny, too, because I think my MBA did exactly the prep I needed for the job I have. Almost all of our projects are now a globally outsourced deal and we have to communicate via e-mail, chat program, teleconference, and server files in order to get work done.

    I have worked with dudes for over a year now that I have never seen in person...from Montreal to India. My company bought IBM's Sametime(like an AOL Messenger) so that we could better communicate with those in other countries we are likely to never meet.



     
  12. novemberdude

    novemberdude New Member

    Little Fauss,

    An anecdote (or two):

    I was studying finance as an undergraduate and for the second class in a row had missed class to go to a bar (The local Hard Rock Cafe, as it happens). I met my teacher on my way back into school. He asked if I'd dropped his class. I wish I'd known now that I was networking, because I think I only got a C- and I keep thinking about Auburn's MBA, but I'll have to redo undergraduate finance because of the C-. I'm sure he would have bumped me to a B if he'd known I was networking. With my girlfriend.

    Same deal with Stats. I was too busy trying to pick up my study partner. Since I don't remember her name (or much of my statistics coursework) you can guess how that turned out.

    I've told a friend of mine who graduated from the same program that I did that I would hire a UoL external LLB over someone from our university. Seriously, I would, if I could find one. Tough program that.



     
  13. little fauss

    little fauss New Member

    Good anectdotes, they ring true and are similar to some of mine: drunken parties, trying to pass myself off as 21 ("Really, man, I just look young for my age and I left my driver's license at home. Honest!"), decorating floats for the homecoming parade, bonfires, girl-chasing, football games watched from the rowdy student section, heavy research in the theory of arcade games undertaken at the Student Union, etc. And all this time I was networking!

    As for UoL external law, talk to Nosborne on that one, you'll find a shoulder to cry upon, he can commiserate. VERY tough program, LLB or LLM.
     
  14. Rivers

    Rivers New Member

    I couldn't agree more. The for-profit model uses mostly adjuncts. How is it that schools that use the same instructors for their online classes as their B&M classes are short changing their students? or giving them less of an education?

    Very Well said! and I couldn't agree more!
     
  15. Rivers

    Rivers New Member

    For a minute I thought I was having Deja Vu. I do notice that this article brings back a lot of the same things we had talked about in this thread.
    http://forums.degreeinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20783

    I find that some of the problems with this article are that the recruiters themselves seem to be all from B&Ms and have the B&M mentality. They do not know how difficult it is to balance work, family and school, nor do they seem to care. They also seem to ignore any type of work ethic that may have been accrued by working as inferior to taking two years out of your life.IMHO it would seem to me that the people who had to work hardest because they could not go B&M would be the ones most sought after because they had to work twice as hard and balance a lot more on their plate! I for one could not afford to get my MBA with out working! Although it is articles like this one that concern me! I was really hoping and banking on getting a better position once I graduate.
     
  16. morganplus8

    morganplus8 New Member

    WOW! My hat's off to all of you who responded to this article! I haven't laughed that much or agreed more whole heartedly with your comments in years! I too did the traditional thing for two degrees and now I have an MBA via distance education. The DL degree was much more challenging and I'm proud to have completed it online.

    As with many of you, I deal with hundreds of professionals every day, Accountants, fellow Engineers, PHd's and everything in between and feel that real life experiences like this more than compliment anything I could obtain in a classroom environment. Classes can often waste more time then they are worth and for my money, I would rather spend my time surrounded by MBA's in the boardroom dealing will real life issues every day.

    The article is not worthy of serious consideration, times have changed.

    Thanks for the lite humour!

    Morgan
     
  17. friendorfoe

    friendorfoe Active Member

  18. friendorfoe

    friendorfoe Active Member

    Forgot.........

    Speaking of the original article...I played in a band for 5 years as a guitarist, we were quite popular and played a LOT of college parties and frat parties...little did I know that when a guy is yelling "show yer' tits" at the top of his lungs to a girl who has consumed a half gallon of Jim Beam that they were actually "networking". How silly of me.

    Then of course there was the time that I stood in line for the bathroom next to a business major in his junior year and he gives me a slobbering confession of "man I graduate next year, that sucks...I only took business because I didn't know what I wanted to do after graduation. Dude! I don't even know how to do my own laundry."

    That fine lad is probably a friggin' CEO by now.

    Then there is my own B&M experience in Computer Science...yes I remember fondly of the days when my Hardware instructor (professor) would walk into the room 5 minutes late, tell us to read chapters 3 and 4 and that there would be a quiz tomorrow and walk back out. (he wouldn't even monitor the quiz, his aide *lackey* would monitor us and take them up). Oh, the fond memories...it was nothing like learning all by myself...(sarcasm intended).

    Yeah...I really feel ripped with my online DL stuff.
     
  19. TomICAVols

    TomICAVols New Member

    I know that my most recent employer looked very favorably on distance education because he'd had his fill of party boys and girls who coasted through State U with their degrees but no real education.
     
  20. PhD2B

    PhD2B Dazed and Confused

    Me too! :D

    I did the B&M, full-time student thing for my undergraduate degree and I started my master’s degree by taking two courses via DL, so I also have experience on both sides of the fence.

    While in my first semester for my master’s program, I got about halfway through the semester, went to my graduate advisor, and told him I wanted to take the rest of the courses on site. The on site courses turned out to be much easier and much less time consuming than their DL equivalents. I learned just as much taking the courses via DL versus on site...and yes this was from a B&M, non-profit university.

    For my doctorate program, I started two programs: one from a B&M, non-profit university and one from an online, for-profit university. The B&M, non-profit university provided me with streaming video courses taught by a professor with a PhD from Princeton. Sounds good doesn't it? It wasn't! The professor was my age! This guy went straight from an undergraduate degree to a doctorate. He has no real world experience other than what he acquired from a lab. While he may have known the course material, he couldn't explain it worth a damn. The book he selected for the course had little to do with the course material so you were entirely dependant on his lectures...which were lousy.

    The two courses I took from the online, for-profit university were no different than my first two DL courses in my masters program from the B&M, non-profit university. The university provided a syllabus, a good book, and a very knowledgeable, responsive professor. Nonetheless, I dropped the B&M, non-profit doctorate program to continue with the online, for-profit doctorate program.

    To say one university is better than another based strictly on the fact that one is B&M and non-profit while the other is online and for-profit is using flawed logic. You have to judge each program based on their individual merits. However, I will agree that the B&M, non-profit degree will have more utility in the end, it definitely does not mean I will end up with a superior education. With where I am in my career, a doctorate is just dressing to my resume. For me a doctorate isn’t necessary, but it will make me stand out from my peers just as long as the degree is properly accredited.
     

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