Question for Rich Douglas

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by 4Q, Aug 1, 2001.

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  1. 4Q

    4Q New Member

    Hey Rich,

    From your previous posts I see you were in the US Air Force at one time. Not sure if you're familiar with the enlisted promotion system but promotions to E-8 and E-9 are extremely competitive. Often, the deciding factor boils down to which eligibles have degrees and in what area.

    Does the Air Force have a screening process when it comes to updating a member's records to reflect current education level? I mean beyond viewing the actual diploma, would do they even check into the validity of the degree, especially pertaining to enlisted personnel? What (other than conscience) would stop one from purchasing a degree from a mill and presenting it to the education center for ed level update, so that the promotion board sees an entry like "Ed Lvl- BA, Bus Admin", in effect making you more eligible in their eyes?
     
  2. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I am a retired USAF Captain, having also served as an enlisted man (I was a Staff Sergeant when I was commissioned). I retired at the ripe old age of 36 in 1996!

    I am quite familiar with the Weighted Airman's Promotion System (WAPS), including the unique aspects of promotion to the "super grades."

    The potential for abuse you cite is very real. Educational records for officers are screened and maintained by the Air Force Institute of Technology (AFIT), an accredited graduate school for Air Force officers. When an officer first enters active duty--and when he/she subsequently earns higher degrees--transcripts are sent to AFIT. AFIT checks the source of the degree for proper accreditation, then codes the degree into the officer's record by school, degree level, and major subject area. Officer records show the two highest degrees earned.

    The process for enlisted personnel is almost the same, except that it is done at each person's base education office, and the computer record doesn't include the source of the degree. As you can imagine, there are varying levels of expertise available for such things; many people doing the screening and coding simply don't know what to look for. It is a simple matter to slip in a degree from an unaccredited school.

    I was an education specialist, working at a base education office. The process may very well have changed since I retired in 1996, but it did not change one iota during my career.

    To my knowledge, the promotion process does not do any additional screening for sources of degrees; they take what is in the record prima facie.

    BTW, I don't exactly concur with the impact of educational level on promotion to E-8 and E-9. While it is certainly a discriminating factor, it was my experience that the types of assignments one served in was the most important factor in the "board score." If I was a Master Sergeant going up for promotion, I would rather have a good assignment track record (special duty, overseas remote, increasing supervisory responsibilities, etc.) plus my CCAF AAS than have a master's but lack either of those things (good assignments plus CCAF). I was always amazed at how much political importance was placed on the CCAF degree. The Air Force expects its senior enlisted personnel to lead by example in that area, and placed far less emphasis on bachelor's and master's degrees. Go figure.

    Rich Douglas, BTZ SrA at 19, SSgt at 21, 2Lt at 24, then put out to pasture and retired at 36. Oh, and collecting an ample pension during the five-plus years since. It is a bizarre system.
     
  3. joybaum

    joybaum New Member

    Speaking of CCAF, that's Community College of the Air Force, right? is there anything strange about their accreditation? I ask because I remember seeing somewhere...maybe in connection with ABET TAC that work done at CCAF wasn't acceptable or something?
    The only reason I ask is, the U.S. Air Force certainly thinks highly of CCAF and I didn't see how anyone could think differently...
    (Granted, the Air Force isn't the NAVY, but it's still a pretty well known outfit...)
    Joybaum, USNR
     
  4. 4Q

    4Q New Member

    Well Rich, I have all those things and more, including AF Level awards. But I'm sure you could see how the bachelors would square me away. Just looking at my options. The diploma mill could come in handy in achieving my short term goal of promotion to E-9 IF there are no real follow-ups in the AF system.

    BTW, I AM working on a legit BA but I have a long way to go. Beyond the AF I wouldn't consider a diploma mill.
     
  5. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Don't consider it there, either. First, there's no guarantee that you will successfully get it past the education services center staff. There is a good change they'll sniff it out. Second, Chiefs should display ethical behavior all the time; they're role models. Third, it would be wrong.

    Accumulate as many credits as possible (perhaps through Excelsior's credit bank?). Get your education level as high as you can. Hope for the best.

    Rich Douglas, who would've caught it.
     
  6. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Navy? I thought we were talking about the military [​IMG]

    Being the civil disobedient type, I always suspected the Air Force put such emphasis on CCAF--and no where near as much on higher degree programs--is that it could look like it was educating its enlisted force without actually doing so. Enlisted guys with bachelor's degrees tend to either want to become officers or civilians. Neither of these is good for the stability of the NCO corps.

    CCAF has been accredited as a two-year degree-granting college by SACS since the late 1970's. I also believe they have one or two engineering-related programs accredited by ABET, but it's been a long time since I looked. Those programs are restricted to personnel who've served in a very few Air Force Specialities related to electrical engineering. Also, the degrees have greater educational requirements. But they are particularly well suited for transferring to a four-year program. That simply cannot be said about the average CCAF AAS (of which I have one).

    Rich Douglas
     
  7. 4Q

    4Q New Member

    True, True. Besides, my luck and conscience wouldn't allow me to execute it. Guess I'm just devious-minded. Your words are duly noted.
     
  8. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    The Army had a similar bias for many years. If you wanted to make 2-stars or up, you had better have graduated from West Point. Whenever we'd get a new platoon leader, the first question was "is he a ring-banger"? For the uninitiated, graduates of the service academies are given big, rather gaudy class rings that new lieutenants in particular wear 24-7. They love to tap them against the nearest hard surface whenever possible.

    Of course, the current Secretary of State, Colin Powell, made it not only to 4-stars but to Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff with a Bachelor's in geology from CUNY and an MBA from George Washington University.

    Bruce
     
  9. Smudge

    Smudge New Member

     
  10. Smudge

    Smudge New Member

    Yes, there is definitely a screening process. Since CCAF is an Air Force agency, verification is pretty simple. The Education Office will have your transcripts anyway.

    When completing a Bachelors or higher, not only must you present your diploma, but your school must send your transcripts to the Ed Center before you receive any baccalaureate credit. Show up with a fake piece of paper asking for a records update and the OSI (Office of Special Investigations) would be all over you like a hobo on a ham sandwich. Even if you did honest work at an unaccredited school, you will not receive credit for the degree nor would you have received any tuition assistance.

    The Air Force works hard at ensuring its members' academic credentials mean something.

     
  11. Smudge

    Smudge New Member

    I forgot to address this point in my other post--my apologies. It is extremely difficult when competing for those last two stripes, but statistically and historically, a Bachelors degree has not been critical for promotion to E-8. For promotion to E-9, it becomes more important.

    I have written to, spoken to, interacted with, and have been briefed by no less than 100 different Chiefs and Colonels who sat on these boards. One philosophy I violently disagree with is they normally don't give extra board points if your degree is not copasthetic with your career field. I believe the educational experience in general, the ability to apply critical thinking, and the development of better communication skills makes that NCO more valuable to the service.

    I made E-8 without a Bachelors nor did I update my records showing I was close to completing my Bachelors. My MBA will be completed within 18 months and I don't plan to stick around for Chief. I'll have over 24 years in service and want to start a second career soon. Best of luck with your career progression.

    ********************
    Originally posted by 4Q:
    Hey Rich,

    Not sure if you're familiar with the enlisted promotion system but promotions to E-8 and E-9 are extremely competitive. Often, the deciding factor boils down to which eligibles have degrees and in what area.
     
  12. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

     
  13. Smudge

    Smudge New Member

     

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