Interesting note on treatment of UoP graduates

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by unixman, Sep 16, 2005.

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  1. unixman

    unixman New Member

    I know this has been beaten up before on this board, but I heard something interesting tonight.

    A friend of mine runs a large department (100+ people) for a big Fortune 50 company (50, not 500 - we're talking one of the biggest companies in the world). Up until recently, they had an unwritten local HR policy that basically blocked all applicants from schools considered to be "legitimate degree mills" (their words not mine).

    Their corporate HR department straightened them out, fearing a lawsuit, I'm sure. They can no longer block a candidate if they went to AIU, UoP, etc.

    Just thought I'd pass this along ...

    Cheers.
     
  2. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    I think UoP is a victim of its own success in some regards. The annoying UoP pop-up ads on half of the websites in existence no doubt leaves a bad taste in the mouths of a lot of people.
     
  3. Vincey37

    Vincey37 New Member

    Change of policy maybe, but I bet they still won't hire any UoP grads.
     
  4. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    That was my reaction too.

    -=Steve=-
     
  5. aic712

    aic712 Member

    Yup, all they have to do is change the public policy, I really doubt any bias towards UOP grads will go away
     
  6. oxpecker

    oxpecker New Member

    The staffing organization at my employer would not consider people with degree from TESC. And we're based in New Jersey (and have billboards advertising TESC within half a mile of our site)!
     
  7. TCord1964

    TCord1964 New Member

    Like I've said in the past, these are employers I would not want to work for in the first place.

    As for the company not wanting to hire TESC grads...perhaps they have had a bad hiring experience with a TESC grad in the past? Or is there a perception it's not a "real" degree?

    Does this mean the most "marketable" DL degree is one from a traditional B&M college which also happens to offer DL programs?
    I'm thinking that may be the case.
     
  8. qvatlanta

    qvatlanta New Member

    There are two basic things a degree accomplishes:

    1) The fact that it was completed in the first place. As long as it's an accredited degree, that means the applicant has the discipline and perseverance to complete a multi-year project. It doesn't matter so much what was studied, just that it actually got done.

    2) Learning skills relevant to the job, either specifically or generally, for example critical thinking.

    In the jobs I hire for, everyone gets tested. I don't care if they learned what they know at Podunk CC or Harvard, just that they know it... I understand that every job can't have formal tests, but in those cases the interviewing process really serves as the test. Simply asking "what did you learn in college about X" "describe a project or term paper you wrote in the field of Y" "How would you approach a problem like Z..." would work. I've heard at Google they ask prospective applicants to write out equations on a whiteboard.

    Basically, my point is that the "trash applicants from the wrong college" restrictions are probably a sign of horribly lazy recruiting. They might be missing the good people from the wrong schools and missing the good people from the right schools as well!
     
  9. japhy4529

    japhy4529 House Bassist


    Bingo.


    - Tom
     
  10. RobbCD

    RobbCD New Member

    IIRC, UoP is a B&M college which also happens to offer DL programs. Alot of (even mostly)DL programs I'll grant you, but they are a B&M school.
     
  11. TCord1964

    TCord1964 New Member

    Yes, but I said "traditional" B&M college which also offers DL degrees. UoP is not a traditional B&M college. By "traditional", I mean an institution such as Oklahoma State University or Penn State or University of Minnesota. When one hears the names of those schools, DL is not the first thing that comes to mind.
     
  12. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Sue for hiring practices?

    Sued on what grounds, I wonder? D/L or UoP graduates are not a suspect classification as far as I know. There's the Griggs case, of course but that was actually racial discrimination in disguise, IIRC.

    A friend of mine used to hire for Microsoft. They had a list of schools whose graduates they'd hire for coders, for instance, and another list of acceptable schools for engineers, etc. If you didn't graduate from a listed school, they wouldn't even talk to you IIUC.

    Large law firms do this all the time, too. Ivy or highway! Even our glorious U.S. Department of Justice has been accused of preferential hiring lately from Conservative Christian law schools.

    That last MIGHT be illegal since it would be discrimination based on religion but in general, this is a legal practice, folks!
     
  13. scubasteveiu

    scubasteveiu New Member

    UoP is/ was what you make of it (like anything else I guess). I had some wonderful classes with great professors.

    I also had some people in my program that I wouldn't trust to manage a goldfish (1/3 - 1/2 of the students). They didn't have the foundational experience from their undergrad to do any quality work.

    I believe, with few exception, that education should be available to all. Maybe not all schools to all people, but it should be available. I am not a big fan of the GRE and GMAT, however they do filter out some of the "undesirables". Some type of filter would have been nice at UoP.

    As for company policy, that is a tough one. One might want to pay close attention to anyone who had *only* DL degrees *and* seemed iffy on the experience side.

    In the end, I do not know why anyone would choose UoP these days ... for ANY degree. There are better, more affordable options available - Period.
     
  14. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

  15. oxpecker

    oxpecker New Member

    TESC is quite well known here because it's local and they advertise on bill boards along Route 1. The ads may hurt perceptions -- since they make it clear that the institution is targeted at adults seeking degrees in a non-traditional manner.
     
  16. little fauss

    little fauss New Member

    You're right, there are no legal grounds upon which an applicant from a for-profit can sue a company for not hiring them because their degree was considered suspicious.

    But perhaps a concern was defamation lawsuits from the "legitimate degree mills". "Mills" means something in the industry, and schools like UoP shouldn't be classified in that manner--it's not accurate as applied to them. And for there to be any coherent HR policy at all, they would have to have guidelines as to what is and is not a "LDM". If they named names, the UoPs and Waldens of the world might be able to make a claim for libel and allege damages. The lawsuit might be a loser, but it might cost a lot to defend. What corporation, no matter how large, wants to risk litigation--even frivolous litgation? (but I don't think it would be frivolous, even if it was a loser)

    That brings me to point two: what if Joe Blow with a for-profit degree files suit against F50 corporation after his application is dumped in the circular file on grounds that he went to a LDM? How much might it cost to defend? Even if his suit is worthless and thrown out and damages/attorney's fees are awarded to the F50, what chance do they have of collecting? How much might it cost to collect? What if Joe Blow or small-time law firm that was naive enough to take a silly suit is judgment proof (as they often are)? What if 100 Joes and Janes read about this suit or see a little about it on the nightly news and get the same idea? What if 1,000 do? See where I'm going?

    There's a yawning gulf between good theoretical constitutional law and pragmatic risk-averse corporate legal practice. But of course, I suspect you know that quite well, Dr. Osborne, I'm probably preaching to the choir.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 16, 2005
  17. oxpecker

    oxpecker New Member

    Is it horrible laziness, or desperation? 10 or 20 years ago, we would get 10-100 applicants for each advertised position. Now (with monster.com, medzilla.com, etc.) we often get more than a 1,000. It used to be that hiring mangers would review the resumes themselves. But because of the volume, we now have professional recruiters who do an up-front filtering based on very crude criteria -- such as type of institution for degree. The goal is to eliminate 90-95% of the applicants up front, and to enrich the pool of candidates that remain with a higher percentage of potential good hires. But, of course, some good candidates are going to be caught up in that 90-95% filtered out up front.
     
  18. chydenius

    chydenius New Member

    Yes, and therein lies a rather large irony.

    I teach for the online campus of a regionally accredited, non-traditional, post-secondary institution. My wife is working on her graduate degree online at a state university.

    Where I work, instructors are required to participate very actively in their classes. At Big State U, at least one graduate course consists of 16 self-grading multiple-guess quizzes; the instructor's participation consists of checking his email a couple times a week.

    Even though both schools are regionally accredited, the graduates of Big State U enjoy an advantage in the marketplace over the graduates of my employer. It doesn't matter that our instructors are much more involved with their students.

    As a result, we try harder.
     
  19. Dool

    Dool New Member

    Hmmm. Let me take a guess. Would this happen to be "The Real Thing", aka, "the big red can?"
     
  20. nosborne48

    nosborne48 Well-Known Member

    Dr. Fauss-tuss,

    Aha. Yes, the school could sue for defamation if the employer's statements were untruthful and damaged the school's business reputation and, I suppose, its graduates could also sue if they could show that their reputations were harmed ...

    But that's not the same thing as suing for an internal corporate hiring policy.
     

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