Becoming a physician.

This discussion was formerly located within this thread but I moved it to a thread of its own.

Originally, dl_mba asked:

I responded (abridged version):

dl_mba posted a follow-up question:

Now... back to the discussion...

Yes, you can probably do evening classes if there is a state university nearby (or a private university that offers evening classes). When I was premed at Stetson University there were NO evening premedical classes. Not a single one for the whole two years that I was there. But many of the state universities seem to offer the courses in the evening.

So what undergraduate courses do you need? The bare minimum include:

Biology (8 credit hours) + Lab
Physics (8 credit hours) + Lab
General Chemistry (8 credit hours) + Lab
Organic Chemistry (8 credit hours) + Lab

Also, I was rereading one of your prior posts and noticed that you asked how you could do this without losing your good job. You realize that you can working during premedical school, but not during medical school, right? If you were accepted to medical school, you have to quit everything you do and just focus on medical school. You'll live off of loans (unless you are already wealthy). You'll be taking 36 credit hour semesters so you won't have time for anything else.

Finally, some schools want proof that you can handle the medical school workload. The way they look for this is by looking for stellar grades during semesters that you took a heavy course load of science class (minimum of 12 hours). If they see someone who has taken one premedical course at a time and made straight A's, they may question whether you can handle medical school because you may be taking 8-10 courses simultaneously while in medical school.

As far as starting a rehab hospital... that is a long way off. But for sure, your prior business training would really help to make that dream a reality!

Fire away any more questions...

 

Going foreign could cut down the time a bit. Foreign MD programs(like the islands or even some in Europe) often have compressed schedules.

I know a lady who just finished her FP residency. She went to the Caribbean for medical school and the time to get her MD was 3.5 years. She did not wait the 1 one year for application either.

Obviously, one takes a chance going foreign and then it's not often like all 50 states are open. But, if a person is open to these limitations then going foreign is a good option for those that might not make it any other way. Let's not even look at the mental factors here either(although that is sometimes very much an issue). For the lady above, foreign was likely the main way to go given her age. Age discrimination is still a factor in this country with regard to medical school.

 

How are Homeopathic Doctors different than DO's?
Are there any schools offering Online/DVD/Video Homeopathic degrees including recidencies?

 

A former colleague of mine went this route also. He did a Caribbean MD in his 40's. Interestingly, he already had a doctorate in public health from Loma Linda, and was a faculty member in the department of epidemiology at the University of Washington. But for some reason he wanted the MD, and U.S. schools were not receptive. So he went off to St. Matthew's University School of Medicine.

 

Re: Re: Becoming a physician.

I have known many MD's that practice a more homeopathic way and known many DO's that are every bit the allopath as an MD. With DO's attending MD residencies they are being trained as MD's rather than DO's. So, anything that Andrew T. Still had to impart must be learned in the DO school and won't generally be propogated in a medical residency.

When I grew up, the DO's would do more medical practice that involved osteopathic manipulative therapy(OMT) and say get the blood flow going to a specific area so that the body might have a better chance to heal itself. The homeopaths would be more interested in other substances, besides corporate medication, that get the healing process going. For instance, I guess if some substance causes a problem in a healthy person then a smaller dose of the stuff would be healthy for a sick person....errr....or along those lines.

I go to a DO now. I cannot tell the difference between him and his partner...an MD. They were both trained in the same MD residency. Seems like OMT isn't much of a thing anymore...even at the DO hospital I am close by.

 

Right. U.S. medical schools are big age discriminators...that and IT shops.

I just read about this Russian doctor in the U.S. He was in family practice but decided to go into a surgical residency at 50 years of age. So, if he can do a surgical residency at 50 then I would assume a 45 year old could go to medical school.

I don't think I would want to do a residency in my 50's but that doesn't mean someone else couldn't.

 

Re: Re: Becoming a physician.

Nope, you cannot become a legitimate, licensable physician (alternative or otherwise) via online, independent study, or distance learning. Any place that promises otherwise is very very likely a sham.

Homeopathy is a speciality favored by physicians and other health care providers who are licensed under another title. I think only Nevada and maybe Connecticut licenses homeopaths and an MD, DO, or ND degree is required as a prerequisite. In the US most legit homeopaths are MDs, DOs, NDs, DCs and a few RNs and psychologists and dentists. A few "lay" homeopaths practice under the "supervision" of a licensed doctor. In Canada and the UK lay homeopaths are more common.

Do a google search on homeopathy for more comprehensive info. It has been a controversial field for a couple of hundred years.

 

That is a good point. The carib schools offer their degrees in three years. Most people try to then transfer into an MD school after year one. If they graduate from the carib school, then they are limited to doing their residencies. I think New York and New Jersey, mostly. Of course, you have to pass the U.S. Medical Licensing Examination in order to practice in the states. And licensing exams are hard!

 

Re: Re: Becoming a physician.

Homeopathic doctors have nothing in common with DOs or MDs. Unless a DO/MD has sought training in homeopathy and then they practice in that manner.

The only thing I've ever seen for a supposed healthcare provider via distance learning is at the Clayton College of Natural Health (http://www.ccnh.edu) where they offer a Doctor of Naturopathy (ND) degree via correspondence. I wouldn't recommend this route at all, however. They offer other degrees too, but again... they aren't NA/RA accredited.

 

My class was full of 40 year olds, and a few in their 50's. But again, we're osteopathic and we look for different types of students. The average age of the my first year class was 27. The average age of the first year class at the local MD school was 22. Big difference when you are talking about means. We just look for different folks, I guess.

We had student with PhDs in psychology, two podiatrics, and a ton of us had masters degrees in a variety of fields.

 

I think this is the case. DO schools look at applicants differently. Also, I have seen that DO's go into FP, or other primary care, in larger percentages than MD counterparts. Maybe that has a portion to do with how they look at applicants.

Wow! You had 50 year olds in your class? Incredible. Glad to hear it. I have had some 50 year old physicians come onto my team. They just get tired of medicine from the sounds of it. I had lunch with one of them recently and he was sick of medicare/medicaid, office, work, etc. He just wanted to do something else for a change. I have seen a few come into the corporate ranks, spend a few years here, then go back to medicine, too. Is anyone happy in their job?

 

My wife and I have seen a D.O. for perhaps ten years and it is the best medical care either of us have ever received. Is it related to her being a D.O. or her being an exemplary human being? Hard to tell.

Before going to medical school, she was a physical therapist. It seems to have been good initial training for her.




Tom Nixon

 

homeopathy/old medical students

If you have a science background it is pretty hard to swallow the idea that homeopathy works. Suggest you look at

www.quackwatch.com

Reference old medical students I know of people as old as 70 years old finishing medical school in the Carib. You are never too old to do what you want.

You do not incidentally do a medical degree in 3 years. THe people who got to the offshore schools have to wait to take USMLEs,csa,etc. and incidentally have a 55% passing rate so often end up taking the exam several times (I read about people who have taken it 5-6 times at www.valuemd.com)

Dean

 

I remember being in college and every lawyer told me not to go into law. Every physician told me not to go into medicine. Every professor told me not to become a professor. The only thing a few people recommended was that I try to go on disability somehow and spend my days watching Jerry and playing Nintendo. It was then that I decided I needed to move into a better apartment complex.

The frustrations in medicine right now are unbelievable. I don't recommend medicine to people unless they truly cannot do anything else (as was the case with me; I had to be a DO). We're working harder and harder, and our salaries haven't changed much in 10-15 years. Medicaid pays so little that it is undesirable to take any Medicaid patients at all because you can't make a living. The Medicare rules are incredibly strict and they are forever auditing docs and nailing them charting errors for tens of thousands of dollars. Malpractice is out of control. Our school loans are astronomical (mine is $280,000), so many of us essentially have a mortgage before we have a mortgage. In the end, financially, I (as a primary care doctor) will do worse than a successful MBA.

That being said... I have a seriously cool job. I have the opportunity every day to help improve lives. I build fantastic relationships with my patients and I am forever getting thank-you notes, food, wine and other gifts from grateful patients. It can be very, very rewarding.

Would I do it all over? I'm not sure. I don't know that anyone who truly knows what medicine is like would ever choose to do this. And you can never know what medicine is truly like until they are calling you "doctor" and all the responsibility for a clinical outcome is on you.

 

One route to practicing medicine without going through all that time consuming training is to become a Physician Associate. I understand that the basic masters degree (which requires a science or healthcare background, IIRC) takes about two full time calender years?

P.A.s ABSOLUTELY practice medicine under general supervision of an M.D. or D.O.

 

Ever wonder whether the reason all those doctors and lawyers and professors were trying to tell you not to try to become a doctor or a lawyer or a professor just might have been an arument from their own self-interest --- they didn't want some newbie with "letters" behind his name that included a "D" because that would be new competition for them.

 

Actually, they are called "Physician Assistants". This profession can be a great alternative for someone interested in medicine, but unable/unwilling to go to Medical School. Realize though, that competition to enter PA school can be almost if not the same as entering Med School. Most programs are 24 months in length (full-time). You do not need a degree to enter the programs, however most applicants have some kind of healthcare background (e.g. Nursing, EMT-B/Paramedic, etc...). Depending on the school, you will leave with either a Bachelor's, Master's or certificate.

To learn more, you may visit the American Academy of Physician Assistants here: http://www.aapa.org/

Also, to learn more about what a PA is (and isn't), visit this link: http://www.aapa.org/geninfo1.html

Good luck!

- Tom

 

That's right. "Assistant".

Anyway, I have long thought that the P.A. route has a LOT to recommend it.

There's a rough similarity between a physician assistant and a paralegal but the paralegal is much more severely limited in his practice than the P.A. is. At least, it looks that way from the Rules.

Of course, even as it is much easier to become a lawyer than to become a physician, it is much easier to become a paralegal than a P.A.

Though I suspect that, to become a GOOD lawyer takes about as long as to become a GOOD physician but the medical establishment regulates the latter process ; restricting independent practice until the doctor has significant clinical exposure. We might do well to emulate that...

 

The PA route is an EXCELLENT option for someone who wants to be involved in healthcare, not bother to spend 4 years in medical school plus 3 years (minimal) in residency, maintain a good lifestyle, avoid malpractice hassles, and still make a decent living. However, let me just say that becoming a PA is NOT easy. NSU has a PA program and I knew some of the people going through the program. During the first year of the program you get a rapid overview of the medical sciences... and I mean RAPID. The pace is very, very quick and it is exhausting.

But the rewards are definitely worth it. It is a great profession and one that anyone interested in healthcare should consider.

 

On-line medical degree?

A year or so ago, there was a flurry of interest (here, and out in the real world) about an a announced on-line medical degree to be developed and offered by a consortium of good schools (I am remembering Strathclyde in Glasgow and Johns Hopkins, but don't have time to do a search.) Wonder where that has gotten to?