Degree for the impatient...

Hi folks,

My relationship with "formal education" has been on the rocks for quite a while now. I made it through high school (2.96 GPA), did well enough on the college entrance exams (730/720 M/V SAT) and went to a semester at a good bricks-n-mortar state U, where I discovered the Internet, yet still managed to pass half my courses. After that, I dropped out (well, maintained my registration for a semester or two), turned pro, and now have about 15 years experience in various IT posts.

Most recently, I've worked in the natural sciences, generally as the "token techie" in groups where each person except me has, or is working on getting, a PhD. On one hand, this is a little daunting, since I have no degree at all, and by most standards am about 7.5 semesters away from getting one. On the other hand, I can talk to holders of doctoral degrees without my eyes glazing over, which is good.

Since I'm posting here, I'm sure you've already gathered I want to get a degree. More specifically, I'd like to get an accredited degree, probably one in natural sciences with a minor in one particular natural science. I've seen offerings like this from, for example, Thomas Edison State College in NJ.

But... like I said at the outset, I'm not big on the whole "formal education" thing. I don't want to spend my day going from class to class. I have to work to survive, which limits how many classroom courses I can take at a given time anyway.

More to the point, I'd want to get my credits, get a degree, and get on with life. There are plenty of accredited distance learning schools out there that would love to have me as a student for four years, just like a bricks-n-mortar one would, but I don't feel that I can devote that kind of focus to education for that long.

So... I'm willing to do CLEP, DANTES, ECE, PLAs - you name it. But I'm not willing to be told that I can only earn 12, 15, 18, or however many credits per semester by any means, including all of the above. I want to get as many credits as possible out of the way as quickly as possible, then focus on what remains.

Can anyone recommend regionally-accredited schools that are likely to allow a lot of credit-by-examination, prior learning assessments, et cetera, to "accelerate" the completion of degree requirements?

Thanks!

 

Thomas Edison, Excelsior College and Charter Oak State College are the usual suspects ('assessment' colleges).

One approach is to get an informal (no guarantees) listing of what courses you will need for a particular degree at a particular school. With that you can knock out whichever CLEP, Dantes, etc. courses you need for that degree before enrolling in your chosen school.

That is a risky approach if you don't know precisely which courses will be accepted but it is accelerated if you choose your courses well.

When you are "testing out" of a degree, semesters are not a factor.

I don't think you'll find tests for the upper level natural science courses and upper level natural science courses, by distance learning, may be hard to find.

Stay tuned for some better responses.

 

I highly recommend you check out www.bain4weeks.com . The degree plans there pertain to business degrees, but it will give you a general ideal of how to quickly gain a BA or BS from Thomas Edison State College, Excelsior or Charter Oak State College.

 

Re: Re: Degree for the impatient...

Oh... I dunno. That one was pretty good.

Welcome, Autodidactic! And, boy, do I know alot of IT guys in your shoes! I'm a 30-year IT vet, and alot of guys in my day got sucked away from school to take exciting (even if low-paying) positions in the then-fledgling micro- and mini-computer industry. There are many, many guys (and women, too, I suppose... but all the ones I know are guys) who can tell a very similar story to the one you've just told. So you can at least take some comfort in the whole "you're not alone" thing... like that and $2.50 wouldn't buy a cup-o-coffee! [grin]

[sigh]

There are no easy answers, I'm afraid to say. It seems like you've already done alot of the research, what with your having written a phrase like "...CLEP, DANTES, ECE, PLAs -- you name it" and all. And what decimon just told you is dead-on. The "big three" (COSC, TESC, Excelsior) are probably your best bets, given the precise way you've presented it.

I remember when "degree completion" programs -- called exactly that -- were just new. In those early days, even some regionally-accredited, private colleges experimented with completion of a bachelors (for any student who already had at least 30 hours of lower-division under their belts) completely by means of PLA. Seriously. I know one college in Northwest Indiana -- a Catholic college -- that toyed with that briefly. I think they tried it for... um... I think it was two years: One, single guided semester of weekly meetings as a "class," with each student learning how to put together his/her big, thick, comprehensive self-assessment package; submitting it; and then getting however many credits (up to 90) that one lacked in their quest for a 120-hour bachelors in general studies in exchange for it. Whew! Gratefully, no one does anything like that anymore (except for the diploma mills, of course)... but, in your case, Autodidactic, I'll bet you wish you could find one of those (legit, RA, degree completion programs of the type I just described) right about now, eh?

And that's the problem. There really are no shortcuts anymore, like I can tell you're hoping you can find. Converting your existing credits into credits at one of the "big three;" plus getting as much PLA as you can; plus taking as many CLEP, DANTES and ECE exams; then taking whatever actual distance learning courses you might need to finish-up, I'm sorry to say, may be your only option.

Technically, you can exam-your-way right through a bachelors degree. It's intense, but it can be done. If you haven't seen it already, see this web site where you can learn how to, theoretically, get a regionally-accredited bachelors degree in four (4) weeks. Of course, that's not really realistic unless you already know all the material covered by the exams, and have scheduled all of them so they occur during a four-week period... which is almost impossible, on both counts. But the theoretical point (and the operative word, here, is "theoretical") of the web site is valid. You can, purely through examination (CLEP, ECE, DANTES, etc.), obtain a fully regionally-accredited bachelors degree by replicating what you'll learn on that web site. So that's another option... though I'm not sure how realistic it is for you.

• EDIT: Oops! I see someone else beat me to recommending the BA-in-Four-Weeks web site while I was composing this post. Oh, well... I still stand by what I wrote about it above.

I have some other ideas that would work for you if you just resigned yourself to the notion that this is going to take longer than you'd like, no matter what you do. Such ideas have to do with ways that you can minimize the pain and cost, yet maximize the convenience to you of getting the degree. If you're interested in learning about that sort of thing, just say so here and I'll share my thoughts with you (and everyone else).

Good luck! I hope you don't get discouraged and just do nothing. That's what most of the guys I was talking about earlier herein eventually did. Please don't do that. By making your inquiry here, you're part-way there already. Now that you've come this far, by all means finish it. You say you're 7-and-a-half semesters away from a bachelors. Well... maybe, and then again maybe not. Maybe it's less. And maybe, in addition to being less, it could also be somewhat less painful and less expensive than I'll bet you're worried it will be. Don't give-up hope. Don't stop looking; and don't stop thinking creatively. Just make sure that whatever you do is legit and accredited. It doesn't necessarily have to be regionally-accredited, but at least make sure it's accredited by an agency that's approved by the US Department of Education (USDE) and/or its Council for Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA). As long as you never stray from accreditation, it's almost impossible to shoot yourself in the foot.

Hope it all works out... and let me know if I can help more (as if I've helped at all so far!).

 

Best wishes to you! Welcome aboard! Do check out BA-in-4 weeks: Lawrie Miller has been doing his very best with this site for years.

Janko Preotul

 

Re: Re: Re: Degree for the impatient...

I'm all ears. (Gosh, I look funny ) Please, elaborate.

(Oh, and just for everyone's amusement... I'm actually on the staff of an institute within the graduate division of a state university, and said institute is one of the top few in the world for what it does. I make no pretense of having anything resembling a degree, but the work I do (rather crucial research support stuff) benefits at least as much from my IT experience than it would from a degree, so no one minds. I even have a "faculty/staff" campus ID, which I find hilarious...)

 

Jawellnofine, I must ask: what exactly are you trying to teach your car, anyway?

 

Check out the link in my sig for info on my own degree journey. It has taken nearly two years, but I will have completed my BS in Business from TESC within a few weeks.

As has been pointed out, there really aren't any major shortcuts now, beyond what has been discussed. Make judicious use out of CLEP, DANTES, ECE, ACE/AARTS (if you are ex-military), and other exams/certifications, as well as prior learning assessments, and you can go from 4 years to 2, or even 1 (there have been a few hard-working souls who have pulled that off).

No matter how you shake it, it will require some hard work and perserverance.

Good luck!

Cheers.

 

Autodidactic,

To obtain any degree is going to take a significant investment of effort, time and money . The primary factor to determine is whether you are currently ready to make a commitment to pursue a degree and what internal and external factors/obstacles may be deterring you from making this commitment. From your postings you appear quite ambivalent about pursuing this goal so it is to your advantage to assess your level of readiness and then proceed from that point either by deciding on what strategies can assist you in overcoming these barriers (ie, procrastination, inertia, ambivalence, etc) or by coming to grips that you may not be ready at this time to make a decision and commitment.

 

First off, welcome. I wanted to do this anyway, so why not here...here's a brief *rambling* synopsis of my experience/thoughts as they relate to finishing my degree by assessment.

After dropping out in my fifth year, I had accrued more than 90 RA Credits from a single B&M land-grant state university (Iowa State). Circumstances at the time led to some very quick relocations and years of challenging and interesting employment (though not a lot of money in working corporate & nonprofit jobs that have no degree requirements). It took me nearly two years to simply pay off the school and acquire official transcripts (wah!- ).

I financed my 5 years at ISU (Cyclones!), in part, with federal loans ($25K or so)...As time passed, I too became impatient to simply finish the degree (I made one "major" change over the time) since I believed I possessed the knowledge and had done the many hours/days/weeks of very hard work that a strong, established undergraduate program should provide. Even the interaction with the academic and scientific community/local community, guests, speakers, groups, programs and jobs counts for a lot imo.

Also, the loans over the years were a constant reminder that I had invested a considerable sum of money and years of effort toward a degree/credits which I did not have and couldn't really use in the marketplace--great motivator.

I came across the bain4weeks site (via google, I think) and I dismissed it for at least a day until I did better research into how the assessment schools work...reading the site in its entirety helped me emmensely. A few months later I began writing DANTES exams (fulfilling multiple iterations of probable degree plans)...Needing fewer than 35 credits to hit 125, I thought this would be the most efficient route to proving my knowledge and finishing school with one of the Big Three. DANTES were cheaper then, but as I was still passing them (with little to moderate study/quick reviews in the public library), the price went up. After writing about 5 exams, I chose Charter Oak and sat for exams in Georgia State's "testing center". Earlier this year, I was graduated by COSC and I'm happy to be finished with my undergraduate education (as are the family).

The counselors /staff at the testing/counseling center were a great find (one was a PhD, another a Maser's student in psych, I think). I'd chat with them about all sorts of things related to the working, love of learning, travel, challenges to students and ways to deal with them. They were IMO informative and inspirational. I questioned them as to why they did not reach out to their dropouts and keep more students at GSU...

Also, it was very cool to see so many other students and testakers working toward their goals....Become one of them. Detractors may attempt to insult your committment, but it's more productive to encourage you IMO. You may or may not have a genuine love of learning or concrete idea of what you will study/pursue right now, but that is no reason to avoid earning a degree if that's what you want or need and believe you can accomplish.

 

Thanks, Oaskle and Simon.

As far as ambivalence... I don't think I'm ambivalent. I want a degree. I had been ambivalent, but that was largely because I thought schools would limit the number of credits I could earn in one semester to 12-24, just like they would in a bricks-n-mortar setting. From what I've read here and at bain4weeks, it looks like that's not the case, which is a big relief for me.

So I've started researching things a little bit, and have discovered that the local university campus is a DANTES and GRE test center. Unfortunately, however, open CLEPs and ECEs are only available in the state capital, which I can only get to by air. I do get flown through there occasionally on my way to conferences (not at my own expense!) so if I decide to take some CLEPs or ECEs, I'll probably try to work them into a stopover there, rather than spending a couple hundred bucks of my own money to go over there just for the tests.

I've skimmed over all the subject GREs, and have determined that there are none I could ace without studying. (But somehow, I think this is probably true for most people? ) If I actually study for them, though, I think I'll be able to handle CompSci pretty easily, and (with increasing amounts of study) English Lit, Psychology and Physics. Of those four, CompSci and Physics would be directly applicable to my current work, and I wouldn't mind loading up on credits in English and Psych, either. So I'm kind of leaning toward the schools (EC and COSC, right?) that can give me some useful credits for GREs, and then I'd probably take a bunch of DANTES tests to round things out.

My wife will be pissed if I ace the Psychology GRE, because she's finishing her second bachelor's right now, by traditional means, at the local university, in Psychology, and has to take the GRE herself for grad school!

I'm going to be at conferences on the other side of the world for the second half of September, and then again for all of November and into December, so I'll start talking to the schools now, but may not be able to start making serious headway on credits until January.

 

To be sure you know, it is Excelsior And Charter Oak that accept GRE subject exams for credit and by different formulae and with different grade standard.

 

Yeah, and Excelsior gives more credit for GREs, so they're looking like my most likely path at this point. But I'll probably contact all three schools and see if they can give me any sort of estimate on time and money.

My wife says she'll be jealous if I do well on the psychology GRE, but overall is very happy that I'm ranting positively about things - let alone ranting positively about things in education, which is definitely not something she's ever seen me do before.

 

Well, the nice thing about psychology is that you can analyze her jealousy and she can analyze your need to rant.

 

Apply to Excelsior, or just enroll?

Excelsior offers an application process, which is optional for most majors, costs $65, and includes an unofficial, one-time review of prior credits, etc. Since I have very few credits to review, should I just cut to the chase, enroll and start taking exams?

 

Re: Apply to Excelsior, or just enroll?

I can only tell you what I did. I paid the $65 and had an unofficial credit review from Excelsior. I ended up going with COSC with an Individualized Studies degree program. COSC seemed to use more of my completed credits and I wasn't interested writing any GRE subject exams. Also, EC stopped answering my detailed questions at one point and recommended I matriculate, whereas COSC kept in contact and answered all my "what ifs?" without any fees, but they did say it was impossible to give a full and accurate review without knowing exactly which degree I was going to complete. I forfeited the EC $65 (but I don't regret it one bit!) fee due to customer service and the fact that COSC had "state college" in the name and their grading methodology for exam credit.

Earlier, I alluded to minimal study for my DANTES exams. I don't want to give the wrong impression. Several times, I left the exams wondering/worrying about how I had done and regretting not giving more serious study to each. I was fortunate to have passed them and chose which ones I took really well (read: stuff I had already been heavily exposed to in one setting or another and directly fit my degree plan). Also, I tend to retain a lot of less-than-practically-useful data in my head (you know, the jeopardy stuff).

Each test was like a final exam from a semester's course at varying levels, but all were challenging. The process of registering, studyng and executing was kind of addictive and I actually missed it when I was finished with all the exams. Writing the exams wasn't "easy" by my measure, it required discipline, study, and commitment to completion of the degree.

Make up your own mind on which school you attend. Each of the Big Three is okay, but they are very different in how they operate, what they offer, etc. One of them will proabaly suit your needs. Best wishes.

 

Re: Apply to Excelsior, or just enroll?

A couple of things to possibly consider regarding the "Big Three", would be:

1. Excelsior and TESC offer MAJORS, while COSC only offers CONCENTRATIONS. This may or may not be important to you, but it's something to consider.

2. You CAN earn a degree in the Natural Sciences (Chemistry, Biology, Geology, etc..) entirely through distance learning, however you will need to take a few science classes with labs. From what I understand, you can take these courses online.

3. Grad School. If you have plans to pursue a Grad Degree (Master's or PhD) in any of the Natural Sciences, you may run into problems with a degree from one of the big three. The reason for this is mainly the Labs. Most schools want to see that you have some butt in the chair (or rather, thumb on the pipette) experience.


Good luck!

- Tom

 

In order to get 30 semester credits for the GRE test at Excelsior you will have to rank at or above 80 %. If you want to major in Chemistry you will need 4 laboratory classes that can be waived if you have enough lab experience

In the GRE you are testing against the clock, it is not only necessary to know the subject matter, but to be able to keep a fast pace for 3 hours.

In order to pass you will need to know the material of books like these:

General Chemistry: Brown, Chemistry: The Central Science or Chang, Raymond General Chemistry: The Essential Concepts or similar.

Organic Chemiistry: Wade, or Solomons or similar

Analitical Chemistry: Harris, Daniel C. Quantitative Chemical Analysis or similar.

Physical Chemistry: Alberty, Robert A., Robert J. Silbey and Moungi G. Bawendi or Atkins, Peter and Julio de Paula or Levine, Ira N. or similar

Inorganic Chemistry: Miessler, Gary L. and Donald A. Tarr or Housecroft, Catherine E. and Alan G. Sharpe or similar.

Since what you study in General Chemistry is covered with more depth in the advanced courses, if you know the material in 4 books such as Wade, Harris, Levine and Housecroft you will be able to pass the GRE Chemistry with flying colors.

 

Thanks, Tom and Steve, Oaskie and chemist.

I realize that I could get a lot of natural science credit-hours if I also took the Bio and Chem GREs, but I'm more at the "earth and space science" end of natural sciences - geology, physics, astronomy - so those aren't quite as interesting to me... sorry, chemist!

I would strongly prefer to have an actual major, because most of the jobs where I work state specific requirements for a "BS in Physics" or the like, and I don't want to have to persuade some of the top people in the field that they should accept a "BS in Liberal Studies" that just happens to have a load of physics credits.

Passing GREs in other things - like Psych or English Lit - would give me a bunch of credits in humanities, social sciences, etc., which would make for a well-rounded degree (IMO). I certainly agree with Steve that the GREs aren't cakewalks. Even though I've worked in computing for 15 years, a quick glance at the CS one gave me the impression that I'm really going to have to read over a lot of terminology, because I haven't kept the names for 5 different kinds of sort algorithms in my head all these years.

As far as labs go, I wouldn't mind getting everything by examination, but I'm okay with taking labs if needed. I may see whether I can do the "visiting student" thing at my local university - there are folks here all the time who're "just here for a semester" and actually go to school elsewhere.

It would certainly be easier to just take a bunch of exams and call it a degree in Liberal Studies, but that degree wouldn't be as valuable to me personally.

I'm also considering whether I want to bang out an associate's degree real quick on the way to a BS, but will probably just enroll for a BS and work on getting it over with.