Seeking advice...should I drop?

Okay guys, I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. A couple of things have changed since I started my degree program.

Texas Commission on Law Enforcement (in Texas) adopted standards for accreditation from colleges and universities...they must be RA. Therefore my NA degree from CPS will be circumspect at the least. Most of the Law Enforcement agencies are now collectively adopting these standards. One state employee told me this was 10 years in the making and since now so many police dept. are adopting this standard, I don't think I can appeal to their sense of fairness.

Since I have not yet finished this degree, I have about 6 to 8 courses left, depending upon what the school is going to charge me for, I have a couple of options.

Options:

1.) Complete my degree and just get a RA graduate degree from someone like U of P...they're expensive, but it'll get me there and they will accept a NA undergrad.

2.) Drop and try to finish up my undergrad from somewhere like Kaplan University (which will accept my credits from CPS since they are a sister school, provided I complete 25% of the degree through them...about 10 courses.)

3.) Drop and finish up at U of P since they are likely to give me credit and I may not have to take 10 courses to complete the degree.

4.) Get an AA or AS degree from somewhere, after all, I have 23 RA hours in Computer Science. This would qualify me for about 95% of the Departments...however I would still have a BS that really would be...scrutinized...which is aggravating.

Open to advice here. I'm at a loss.

 

Check out NorthcentralU. They provide a scholarship to active law enforcement. At the graduate level, this equates to $285 per credit hour. Not sure on the undergrad scholarship. By the way, NCU is RAand have been referred to in many posts. Myself and Chief Novick from New Jersey have received outstanding service and a quality education. Chief Novick is an abassador on the NCU website.

 

Oh, I dunno. If a given agency has previously accepted NA, then it's certainly not unreasonable to point out to said agency that while you understand the RA-only decision, you, nevertheless, based an entire, expensive, once-in-a-lifetime degree program on their previous standard -- a standard which is changing only now that you're almost done -- and, therefore, it's simply unfair to apply the new standard to you. So, therefore, you humbly request a waiver in your particular case.

Along with that point, it would also not be unreasonable for you to also state that you believe it completely reasonable for the state to enforce the new RA-only requirement (even if you don't, really feel that way... but sometimes you have to schmooze a little on things like this) upon any officer who is only contemplating starting a degree program; but that fairness dictates that those who have already begun one based on the old NA-or-RA-didn't-much-matter standard should be allowed to complete it and enjoy whatever benefits it would have brought prior to the change.

And, in fact, if the matter were to ever get into a court of law, I'm thinking that that's just about how a judge would rule...

...well... maybe anywhere but Texas.

Not a bad idea, since it will result in your having an even higher degree than you'd planned... or at least sooner than you'd planned.

Which is only 2 to 4 courses more than you have to complete anyway... so not nearly the kind of hardship it would be for someone who, for example, is only halfway through.

If only 6 to 8 then you'd be right where you are now; and if less than 6 to 8 then you'd be in an even better position.

This doesn't seem like a good option at all.

Whew. What a mess. Sorry for your plight. Texas... can't live with it, can't kill it.

Well, I'd eliminate option #4, just right out of the gate.

Then, I guess I'd see about that appeal that you earlier said probably wouldn't do any good, only making the argument that I suggested. Do it very formally, and flat-out ask for a formal waiver of the new RA-only rule in your case... especially since, to you, it feels almost like a breach of agreement on their part. I mean, however many years ago when you were deciding on what bachelors program you would begin, you first looked-up the rules and bygod you abided by them. Now you expect them to honor that, too -- if not precisely its letter, then at least its spirit. After all, it's not your fault that it takes so long to actually get a bachelors degree that it's reasonably possible for the policiy to change over time before you can get it done. You could say that you completely understand and support the new policy, generally; but that for people like you who, based on the rules as they existed at the time, committed to a costly and irreversable once-in-a-lifetime program, there should be an exception; and then strict enforcement of the new policy thereafter for those, unlike you, who haven't even started a program yet.

If that doesn't work, I really think you should at least consult with an attorney and see if you have any cause of action. It doesn't mean you have to actually do it; and no one has to know about a lousy consultation. You can always just do nothing, even if it turns out you would have a valid case. I mean... what would it hurt, right?

If none of that pans out, then one of your first three options is definitely the way to go. Again, just forget #4. Ick.

You'd be better off just seeing if you can find an RA bachelors program that will let you transfer-in with all your NA bachelors credits, and then just let you finish. Under the circumstances, I'll bet if you could write-up a sufficiently compelling attachment to your application, you might even get the RA institution to waive its rules about the minimum number of credits you must take from them. If you could, you might be able to just transfer your current situation over to an RA school, take the 6 to 8 more courses -- and probably pay alot more for them -- and finally just be done...

...especially if you indicated, at the same time, that you might be interested in continuing on to one of their masters programs within a year or so.

Wish I could help more. Sorry you have to endure this.

 

Well, if it were me, I guess I'd go for option number two. No sense earning a degree that isn't going to do you one bit of good. On the other hand, you're nearly there, so if you can find an RA school to give you credit for all the courses you've already completed, plus a few more to meet their "residency" requirements, that seems like a relatively painless way to go. I'm sorry, but I don't know who CPS is...and I thought I knew all the acronyms here. There are other posts here which contain lists of schools which accept NA credits. I'm sure you'll be able to find one to fit your needs. Good luck.

 

Thanks for the replies guys.

DesElms...I did contemplate protesting, whining, kicking, screaming and if that didn't work...being nice, but I don't think it'll get me anywhere. As a bonus, my employer will of course recognize my degree, but as soon as I hit tenure here (18 months) I'm cashing out and going to another department...it's a money and personal thing that's hard to explain (read: wife).

As for the other department, they are going to hold my education to the CURRENT standards of TCLEOSE which is not going to cut it.

As a quick one off, I sent an email to Fort Hayes State University regarding their MLS degree which is something like a 31 credit hour graduate degree for only about $5,000 plus cost of books. This seems like a good option because it's cheap and my undergrad won't be a complete friggin’ waste and if I decide one fine blue day that law enforcement is not my cup of cocoa, then I don't have a $25,000 graduate degree in it that I simply cannot use.

On Monday I am calling U of P and Kaplan University and explain my predicament...will post their reply here.

I have strongly considered NCU and may very well wind up going there however as DesElms can attest, I really, really have my heart set on going to St. Josephs College of Maine for an MBA in Leadership, which I will get come heck or high heck. I don't think I could finish it in the time frame that I would like (about 18 months) before moving on into another employer and I do not, DO NOT want to rush through that MBA.

As for getting an AS...yeah...I kind of threw that out there. Man what a bad option that would be.

 

Got it. 'Nuff said.

Well, it makes sense that your current dept is willing to honor the sort of "agreement" they had with you back when they set the standard and you entered a program based thereon; and it also makes sense the the department that doesn't know you and made no such agreement might not. So, so far, no surprises.

Hmm. Sounds... er... well... interesting, but... well... let's take your issues in order...

UOP: Ick... for all kinds of reasons. And $$$!!!

Kaplan: Gag! Avoid at all costs, in my opinion. Activate "lies-to-students-and-is-basically-disingenuous" alert! Just my opinion, mind you. And, also, $$.

Sorta' almost ick, too... though I know that opinion willl tick-off some folks around here. Sorry.

Yeah... and I hate to see you go out and get one masters now, from Ft. Hays, and then the SCJME MBA later. I'm worried that once you're done with the Ft. Hays thing, you'll be all masters-degreed-out... no matter how convinced you are right now that the SCJME MBA is a done deal. Plus... c'mon... money's money. You seem to be saying you've got an extra $5K to throw around on a quick-n-dirty masters degree that you're not completely certain you even want, except for its expediency in your special circumstances. Doesn't feel like MBA-quality strategizing to me! [grin]

But seriously... I'm dubious about this Ft. Hays masters thing when you've got a perfectly good, wonderful, you're-one-of-the-few-people-who-gets-how-really-special-it-is MBAs just waitin' for you to finish your lousy 6 to 8 (or even 10, if that's what it turns out to be) bachelors courses. It's just me, of course... but... I dunno... I say you gotta' keep your eye on the ball, here... and the ball's that SCJME MBA. Just my opinion, but I'm just sayin'.

Well... I don't know if you... um... well, I should be careful what I say, here 'cause I don't know what influences are at work; but maybe you should re-think that 18 month deadline... either not moving on then; or moving on, but able to show that you're almost done with your MBA and asking that that be treated the same as if you had or something. I dunno... I'm just doing a stream of consciousness thing here for a moment.

Hmm. And you've checked the "big three" (COSC, TESC and/or Excelsior) and they won't take your NA credits, then, right? I mean, I don't know if they will or not. I've never dug that deeply into any of them... but if one or more of them will, that may be the ticket. They're regionally-accredited, and if they, with their kind of flexibility, can't figure out how to make something like this work, it's difficult to imagine who can.

Also, isn't CSU hooked-up with two or three RA schools? Have you ever considered talking to someone at CSU about your plight and doing some over-the-phone, out-of-the-box thinking, together, about what you could do? I mean... what if someone at CSU had the kind of connection with someone at one of the RA schools with which it's associated that could get your credits transferred over there, then you take your 6 to 10 courses, and you're done... only with an RA degree after all, instead of the NA one from CSU that you thought you were gonna' to get. I'm very much a pick-up-the-phone-and-see-who-I-can-talk-into-breaking-the-rules-for-me kinda' guy, so I'd be all over something like that like white on rice. Think about that sort of thing, okay?

And I'll give this some more thought. There's gotta' be a way.

Oh... one more thing... what did you say your bachelors was in again?

 

Sorry...it was a BS in Criminal Justice....(one of those slightly pointless degrees I know.)

I'm way ahead of you on a couple of things. I already checked the schools that CSU affiliates with. No dice there. Funny, several schools that cost lots of money will accept a NA degree as a prerequisite to their program but not the credits for an undergrad from them. Curious.

I am thinking you may be right about keeping the eye on the ball thing. St. Joes just may have to wait for a moment. When I call U of P I'm going to try to get them to get me into their BS degree for as little work and money as possible. Should that not pan out, Kaplan should help me out here as College for Professional Studies IS their sister school.

I read that Troy State will accept a NA undergrad degree for their graduate program, however their literature says otherwise. I wouldn't mind an MS or MA in CJ, I'm just not keen on spending $20,000 to do it.

As for Ft. Hayes...I'm really not keen on that at all. Just grasping straws here...besides, an "oral defense" on a Liberal Arts Masters degree that is terminal, doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense to me.

I like NCU, but what's with this no Title IV thing?

There is of course one option that neither of us has considered, but I'm not sure how viable it is. Graduate Certifications....you know, like those from E Cornell (but not that expensive). Since most police departments specify credit hours, not degree status, this could work...but still aggravating.

I think I'm gonna try this credit transfer thingy first before looking over the graduate stuff. Maybe get one of those Icky Poo BS degrees from U of P. Hell...their so desperate to enroll people they'll probably agree to it. All is fair in higher education.

 

Re: Re: Seeking advice...should I drop?

 

Thanks for the tip...but I'm not going to fight it. First, not all departments have the same requirments...for some a NA degree is fine. Others follow the Comissions lead.

I am probably turning a mole hill into a mountain, but it is very irritating to say the least...anyhow, I may just settle down, stay the course, bite the bullet and a lot of other cliches, and just get it done.

I would be inclined to get a graduate degree in Criminal Justice just to validate my undergrad.

So I don't qualify for a few departments...so what?

I'm still gonna see what Kaplan and U of P say. It may be worth the application fee to see how many credits will transfer over.

 

friendorfoe,

Don't be so quick to decide, just yet.

I have an idea, but I can't pursue it 'til Monday morning. It's a longshot... but I happen to know that this RA DL criminal justice bachelors accepts NA coursework... or at least it accepts NA 60-hour associate degrees from the likes of Ashworth, for example, in complete satisfaction of all lower-division requirements. If they could somehow be talked into waiving a couple of their gotta'-take-so-many-hours-from-us-overall and their the-last-so-many-hours-gotta'-be-from-us requirements, you'd be all set. And I just might (and I stress the word "might" 'cause it might turn out that I don't) know a person there who can help. It's not worth holding your breath over, mind you... but it's worth a shot. This school, by the way, is another one of my hidden gems... a little like SJCME. It's owned/operated by the United Methodist Church, and the people there are just really nice, straightforward, helpful, no-nonsense folks.

Let's see what happens. Talk to ya' later.

 

Wow, that great Mr. DesElms! Hope it works out.




Abner

 

Looks great...

Yeah I talked to U of P....30 semester hours through them minimum. Uhh...no thanks thank you.

As for Kaplan, I hit the poor admissions kid with some tough questions so he has to get back to me "before the end of the week" after speaking with a Prior Learning Assesment counselor, which I guess I can't speak to directly.

As for Southwestern College...it looks like an Oasis to a man dying of thirst. Where do you find all these schools?

 

Okay, just got off the phone with Kaplan and spoke to a guy who actually knew what the hell he was talking about.

It seems that I am about approx. 10 classes or less away from a BS...they will accept all of my CPS credits. I do have to take a minimum of 25% of the degree program through them, however they will offer me a scholarship for being in LE of about $200 a class.

All books included, no application fee or credit evaluation fee and they are a Title IV school. 10 week classes etc. Sounds like a winner to me.

 

Thats Great!!! I am glad everything worked out for you.



Abner

 

Like I said...option number two! LOL!

Actually, I'm glad it worked out so well for you. I always thought Kaplan was a little pricey, but it sounds like you're getting a great deal!

I need to find me a job with TUITION ASSISTANCE!

 

Tcord...you got that right.

Nothing's official yet..but I am just a little closer.

 

Glad to see it worked-out. I haven't heard back yet from the guy at Southwestern, but it appears to be moot now.

Good luck! Now hurry-up and finish up so you can get started on that SJCME MBA!

 

Which grad degree are you planning to pursue @ UOP? Let me know and i'll check into the residency requirement and course transfer options for you.

I think this one may best serve your purpose:

Master of Science/Administration of Justice and Security
Version 001

Program Description

The Master of Science/Administration of Justice and Security degree provides the required knowledge for the student to develop competence in administering criminal justice or security programs. While distinctions between the roles of justice and security organizations are understood, the degree emphasizes an understanding of administrative responsibilities common to both disciplines. The value of cooperative interaction is also addressed. The degree provides the student with administrative program development and problem solving skills in preparation for promotional or transitional opportunities in the management of police, corrections, security or court operations.


Survey of Justice and Security CJA 500
Organizational Administration and Behavior CJA 510
Management of Institutional Risk CJA 520
Ethics in Justice and Security CJA 530
Criminological Theory CJA 540
Legal Issues in Justice and Security CJA 550
Critical Incident Management CJA 560
Cyber Crime and Information Systems Security CJA 570
Public Policy Issues CJA 580
Concepts of Physical and Personal Protection CJA 585
Forensic Science and Psychological Profiling CJA 590
Program Development and Evaluation CJA 595


Please check into all your options though, yes UOP is RA, but there may well be cheaper options, although I am not the CJ expert, Bruce has an excellent website on RA CJ degrees

http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/cjdegrees/degrees.html

 

Thanks guys. Gregg, Southwestern actually looks very nice...should things be too good to be true at Kaplan, I will give them a ring. As a side, I've already called and left a message with no return call as of yet.