distance JD + MPP, MPA or MBA

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by PKomarnicki, Jul 26, 2001.

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  1. PKomarnicki

    PKomarnicki New Member

    I'm curious if there are any distance JD programs, or any schools that offer duel JD plus either an Masters in Public Adminisrtation, Public Policy or business administration. Any help would be appreciated.
     
  2. joybaum

    joybaum New Member

    On-line and correspondence JD programs exist. Some of them are registered with the California Bar Examiners and therefore allow the graduate to take the bar and be licensed as an attorney IN CALIFORNIA ONLY! Other JD programs are termed "non Bar" and qualify the holder to practice law in NO state. Since the JD is a professional degree, I have never seen the point in getting a JD that can't ever result in a law license. The degree itself isn't much for prestige, like a PhD would be, and coming from one of these schools it would carry almost no weight in the academic world.
    If you think that California is the state for you, I suggest that you go to www.calbar.org and click on the links. There you will find a link to "law schools-correspondence" that lists all of the California bar eligible programs.
    Joybaum
     
  3. Byran Lee

    Byran Lee member

    Southern California University for Professional Studies (SCUPS), offers a dual J.D.(Cal bar or non-bar option) and M.B.A program.

    This school does not have recognized accreditation, but state-approval.

    Cheers,

    Byran
     
  4. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    A background in law might be useful to somebody in business or public administration. The legal environment influences business decisions, from taxation to intellectual property. Most legislators seem to have law degrees, which makes sense since they are the ones drafting laws. I can see the value of a law degree in law enforcement or in managing the multitude of regulatory agencies. Hell, legal education is even relevant to political philosophy and ethics. I know two academic philosophers with JDs as well as Ph.D.s.

    So I think that a legal education might be of interest to more than just aspiring attorneys.

    I'm not sure that these CA-approved DL law schools are the best thing going. Their bar-pass-rates are usually pretty low and I don't know how you would get courtroom practice and stuff.

    But they may conceivably find a valid niche in providing further legal education to people in other fields. That's why Concord's DETC accreditation is relevant, even if it isn't the bar-qualifying ABA.
     
  5. joybaum

    joybaum New Member

    Well, I agree that a legal education is a useful background in many fields such as politics or law enforcement. I suppose my objection to non-Bar programs is mostly that if you are going to pay all that money and do all that work, you ought to get a Bar qualifying degree.
    As I understand it, the biggest difference between Bar and non-Bar courses is that the Bar course requires that a certain amount of progress must take up a certain amount of time. You can't speed it up even if you are able to pass the course exams You've got to spend at least four years completing the program and there's a minimum amount of study time in each year.
    The other big difference is that Bar students must take and pass the "baby Bar" sometime in their second year of studies. This is not a trivial exercise. The pass rate is rather low.
    Finally, I agree that the SCUPS program looks about as good as any. Their Bar pass rate is pretty poor compared with Taft but they seem to be a bit cheaper. I admit that I considered their tax LLM once myself. Certainly, they are not a diploma mill.
    Joybaum
     
  6. David Yamada

    David Yamada New Member

    I think your choices are in part shaped by why you want the law degree. If, at any point in time, you want to use the degree as a credential in terms of applying for a job (legal or not) in the U.S., then I would strongly suggest that you attend an ABA-accredited school. The possible exception is if you intend to live and work in California, in which case you could consider California accredited schools.

    I agree with Bill Dayson about Calif. DL law schools, unless you are considering these degrees solely for your own knowledge, perhaps for use in a current, non-legal job.

    The day may come when DL J.D. programs carry greater acceptance and more promise of eventual bar admission, though I have my doubts that the legal establishment will be so accommodating.

    To answer your question more directly(!), the better DL law schools in the U.S. -- Oak Brook, Concord -- are freestanding law programs right now. If you are determined to seek both a J.D. and a MBA or MPA through DL means, then perhaps you might fashion your own "joint degree" program, simultaneously taking courses from, say, an Oak Brook and a Heriot-Watt.

    Good luck!
     
  7. EsqPhD

    EsqPhD member

    Who would want to practice law outside of California? [​IMG]

    I don't think it is a good idea to take a non-Bar DL law degree unless one at least wants to pass the Bar (passing it is another thing--especially in CA). You don't have to practice--just pass it. Then, you won't get any flak from those who think you couldn't pass the Bar. And unfortunately, in CA, many can't pass the Bar, which I think is one of the hardest in the nation. Even people from great schools, good people, for some reason can't pass. If I went to law school and never passed the Bar, I would probably never list my law degree. Kind of like a doctor who can't pass the USMLE, he would be laughed at if he listed the M.D.

    If I had no intentions of taking the Bar or practicing law, I'd spend my efforts on other degree programs like the MPA, MBA, DBA, Ph.D., etc.

    EsqPhD
     
  8. joybaum

    joybaum New Member

    I should clarify my earlier statement that a DL law degree is good only in California. That's not entirely true. Once a lawyer has practiced for a certain period of time, usually five years, there are a couple dozen states that will allow that lawyer to take their Bar exam even though he graduated from a non-ABA accredited school. The only state that I know of that will not accept a correspondence JD under any circumstances is Texas.
    Joybaum
     
  9. Lawrie Miller

    Lawrie Miller New Member

    I found this whole post particularly informative and interesting. Could you comment on your thoughts about obtaining an LLM with no underpinning by JD or LLB?
     
  10. EsqPhD

    EsqPhD member

    I have an LL.M. in Taxation from the U.S. I believe that in the U.S., LL.M.'s require either the LL.B. or J.D. as a prerequisite. However, in other countries like England, I believe one can earn an LL.M. (in certain areas) without a previous foundational law degree.

    I would think that without any foundational legal studies, an LL.M. from i.e., the London School of Economics would be very challenging--but if one can do it and accept that it won't satisfy the requirements for practice here in the U.S., I don't see why not. It may be very helpful for say an economist to go (i.e., London School of Economics) and obtain an LL.M. in Law and Economics. I think in that type of situation, it is very appropriate and prestigious also.

    I would have to defer this area to our resident expert--Joybaum, who I believe is in the LL.M. program at the University of London.

    EsqPhD
     
  11. joybaum

    joybaum New Member

    Well, I am not YET in the University of London program...they've asked for transcripts from my law school. Who knows where THAT may lead!
    You are technically right when you say that you can't get a US LLM without an LLB or JD. However, some LLM programs are open to people with non-law backgrounds but the degree name is different. For example, some law schools offer the LLM in Taxation to lawyers and a Master of Taxation to accountants. The degree requirements are similar and you might sit in a class made up of both lawyers and accountants. I've noticed that the environmental law field seems to work the same way; LLM for lawyers and Master of Environmental Science (or something) for the biologists.
    The University of London will admit LLB holders and those with non-law degrees where the degree is in a subject "appropriate to the LLM". If a candidate is admitted with a non-law degree, he will be limited in the subjects he may offer for examination to those directly related to his BA. I have no idea what this means in practice.
    You know, speaking of UoL, if all you want is a good foundation in the common law, UoL has a well known DL LLB program that's recognized and cheap. It won't get you into any state bar that I know of, except maybe New York, but it might get you into an ABA accredited LLM program. Some states allow ABA LLM holders to take their Bar exams. For info, see www.malet.com.
    Joybaum
     
  12. EsqPhD

    EsqPhD member

    At my school, the LL.M. in Taxation doesn't allow any non law students to take LL.M. courses. They actually have another program for people pursuing the M.S. in Taxation. Though the programs look pretty identical--they're different in focus. The LL.M. in Taxation will focus more on the legal analysis of tax cases and laws while the M.S. in Taxation will be more hands on and "accountant" practice oriented. For example, both programs may have the same course name called "Corporate Tax," but the focus for the M.S. people will be more on corporate tax preparation and advice related thereto, while the LL.M. people (most of whom are practicing lawyers) will focus towards corporate tax transactional work.

    They're really different programs, at least among those that I know. I thought about doing the M.S. in Taxation because I heard it was more practical than the LL.M. in Taxation--but I decided not to because I didn't have enough accounting background to really appreciate the program. I would assume it would be the same way if an accountant was taking an LL.M. in Taxation course, he/she would probably not be able to fully appreciate for the lack of prior legal studies.

    I guess my point is that sometimes, even though the programs may look very similar (i.e., an M.S. in Tax verses a Master of Laws in Tax), it may be quite different in focus and application.

    EsqPhD
     
  13. joybaum

    joybaum New Member

    Ah. That distinction between the law and nonlaw degrees sounds reasonable.
    There is something I've often wondered, though. As I understand it, there are dozens of LLM programs in Taxation out there but NONE of them are online. There are two LLM programs online from ABA schools, Regent University and St. John's, but they are in International Taxation, not the straight tax degree. EXPENSIVE, too. I wonder why there aren't more ABA LLM courses online?
    There are also two or three Califonia correspondence tax programs (SCUPS and Taft come to mind) but would those degrees be worth anything in the marketplace?
    Joybaum
     
  14. EsqPhD

    EsqPhD member

    In regards to the online LL.M. in Taxation--as you know, in the legal profession, online programs aren't highly looked upon--maybe that may be a big factor. Another reason--may be not too many attorneys want to practice tax law--as such, there may not be as much demand to support both residential and online programs.

    As for me, I'd probably not go online for legal studies due to the fact that I have a hard enough time with the readings and lecture (more lecture in the LL.M. in Taxation program than the Socratic method usually found in the J.D.)--the thought of not being able to ask both professor and fellow students for immediate clarification would be a major concern.

    As for the marketability of SCUPS and Taft LL.M.'s, I don't know. I haven't met anyone with degrees from those schools yet. I suppose the majority of firms may have problems. Around here, tax attorneys typically have LL.M.'s in Taxation from either NYU or Golden Gate University. As NYU is the premier LL.M. in Taxation for much of the east coast, Golden Gate is the premier LL.M. in Taxation for much of the west coast. I believe those two schools put out the majority of LL.M.'s in Taxation as they are considered the best LL.M. in Taxation programs in the country.

    EsqPhD
     
  15. cbkent

    cbkent Member

    Britsh-American University, a CA approved DL school, offers a joint JD/MBA program. I am in my third year of the JD program, and quite pleased with it. I passed both the Baby Bar and MPRE on my first attempt, but many of my virtual classmates did not. I find this curious, since we had the same instruction.

    Bar admission has value to me; an unaccredited degree would not be useful to me professionally. That's why I went for the Bar-JD and passed on the MBA.

    Christopher
     
  16. joybaum

    joybaum New Member

    I would be very interested to know why you selected a D/L law program, what you intend to do when you are admitted, whether you believe that the lawyer job market will be good for you, and the like.

    Joybaum
     
  17. Jonathan Liu

    Jonathan Liu Member

    Hi, can you provide the link to the St.
    John's online LLM? I can not find it.

    Thanks.

    Jonathan



    ------------------
    Jonathan Liu
    http://www.geocities.com/liu_jonathan/distance.html
     
  18. EsqPhD

    EsqPhD member

    While I wish you success on your final two years and eventual Bar exam, I hope that you are aware that though your DL school may be California State approved, it is still an unaccredited law program (not accredited via the ABA or Committee of Bar Examiners for the State Bar of California)--hence, your future J.D. will be an unaccredited law degree. I wanted to mention this because of your comment above indicating that an unaccredited degree would not be useful to you.

    EsqPhD
     
  19. PKomarnicki

    PKomarnicki New Member

    Thanks everyone,

    My fiance works at the NYS legislature and was interested in getting a JD and a public policy or admin. degree becaues it would help her at her job. However, although she really doesn't plan on practicing, I agree it doesn't make sense to go through all that an not be able to sit for the bar. Being able to practice would give her a lot more opportunity for the same effort. Her problem is that she can't go full time, or even nights and a big part of traditional law schools seems to be making you do a lot of work in a set period of time.

    Thanks
     
  20. cbkent

    cbkent Member

    Thank you for your inquiries. EsqPhD--I'm aware that the degree is unaccredited. It is not the degree I am seeking--it is bar admission. The degree is merely a step in the process. I would pursue the program if no degree was conferred, provided it resulted in eligibility to sit for the bar. As you undoutedly know, some states (including California) permit study by "apprenticeship" with an admitted attorney or judge in a court of record. Such individuals, if otherwise qualified, are permitted to sit for the bar. Through this mechanism, one can become an admitted attorney without any law degree, accredited or otherwise.

    My situation is admittedly anomalous. I am trained as a chiropractor. Several years ago, I sufferred a stroke which left me with residual paralysis, precluding practice. I became actively involved in chiropractic politics, as well as teaching continuing education classes. Eventually, I co-founded a company that manufactures diagnostic equipment for chiropractors, and another which produces a monthly cassette update of relevant publications.

    Being a licensed attorney would be of great value in all of these endeavors.

    I do not plan to "hang a shingle" an offer legal services to the public. However, with my specialized knowledge and experience, I could participate in depositions and trials as a co-counsel. Of course, there would also be advantages in dealing with other attorneys in the course of my business.

    Even as a student, I find I command more respect from the attorneys I work with. I know the jargon, and can communicate more effectively with them. I am developing the ability to differentiate BS and laziness from quality legal work.

    I do not intend to seek employment as an attorney.

    I selected a DL law school because a "bricks and mortar" program would be impossible for me. Having been fascinated by the law for years, I decided to try a year of DL study, and see if I liked it. I decided that if I passed the Baby Bar on the first attrempt, I'd continue. Otherwise, I would drop out.

    For the vast majority of potential law students, I would strongly recommend an ABA accedited program. Yet, if asked, "Where did you go to law school?" I will not be embarassed to reply, "I qualified by independent study."

    BTW, how often have those of you in professional practice been asked by a patient/client where you went to school, or your GPA?

    These are issues for a person seeking employment. In professional practice, reputation is what makes or breaks you.

    Christopher
     

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