CJ doctoral study

QUOTE]Originally posted by Bruce


I know I'm a bit biased, but I really think that UML has one of the best programs around. The Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences agrees with me, listing them as one of the top Master's programs in the country from schools that don't offer a doctorate in CJ. [/QUOTE]

Hey Bruce,

Your observation about CJ schools is right to the point of a recurring lament of mine: There are no true CRIMINAL JUSTICE doctorates being offered in the entire country by DL!

I went back and looked at your excellent list (as well as the mega site list) and it appears that all of the doc programs listed offer docs in business, human services, etc. with only some loose specializations in CJ.

Now, I'm in south central Connecticut about 75 miles by train from New York City. This is where the closest (to me) true CJ doc program is (John Jay College at CUNY). Two or three times a week doing this at my age and I can come down with the vapors!

I am wondering what the hold up is. With larger schools offering blended docs (limited residency) in other fields I wonder what is the reason why NO established CJ schools that are doing master's degrees on-line aren't doing PhD level programs also.

UML, BC, CUNY, Plattesville, SUNY Albany, Northeastern, etc. are all great B&M CJ schools (of course there are many others also) that are doing master's programs on-line, why can't one of these wonderful places start at least a blended program?


Has anyone heard anything in this regard?

 

Supposedly Nova Southeastern University will be starting a distance Ph.D. in Criminal Justice program sometime in 2006. I'm not sure if it will be completely online or if NSU will require short residencies along with the online coursework.

I received this info about 8-10 months ago from the director of NSU's Criminal Justice Institute so hopefully it will come to fruition soon.

I would also be interested in a nontraditional/online Ph.D. in Criminal Justice from a recognized school and with the growth of interest in the field itself I'm suprised nobody's taken the initiative to start up a nontraditional doctoral program.

abnrgr275

 

Hi abnrgr275 ,

1.) NSU usually has limited residencies (sometimes in a location in nearby cities). That certainly doesn't seem to be an impediment as much as the dearth of programs is. I bet many would be interested if you posted any new info you get on the program.


2.) With no disrespect to the fine folks in the homeland security crowd, I think that is actually the area where the current growth of interest is. I am guessing that traditional CJ degrees will continue to languish while more popular programs such as homeland security will gain steam. I guess it is just a factor of universities having to fill market needs also.

 

I feel your pain.

Until last year, the closest to me was also John Jay. Northeastern just started a Ph.D. in Criminology and Justice Policy, but it's only available to full-time students, and I don't have nearly the time for that.

One of the main reasons I've held off enrolling in a doctorate program is because I'm waiting for someone to step-up and offer a true CJ program. I really don't want a business or human services degree, then have to explain the "specialization" to any potential employers.

I think that UMass-Lowell will offer a doctorate in the next few years. When I was in the program, every student had to take a survey, most of which was about whether we would consider a Ph.D. in Criminal Justice from UML in the future.

Whether they offer it by DL is still a very big question, but I know that UMass Online has been a huge success, to the point that UML no longer offers my degree program on a strictly off-campus basis, as I did it.

 

Re: Pain

Hey Bruce:

The Northeastern program sounds good especially if you got your MS there. The Doc is not many more courses, comps and dissertation above that.

My sister-in-law is a FT professor at Northeastern and has heard that the initial cohorts will be small. UML would be a GREAT program I'm sure. How do we convince the powers that be that active practitioners want to do advanced study as well. I'll never get a tenure track position when I retire at this rate!

 

Re: Re: Pain

Does the criminal justice field have a professional association for crminal justice programs? You might start a massive letter-writing campaign letting them know of the demand if they do.

 

Re: Re: Re: Pain

Hi Ted,

The field of policing in the USA is largely fractionalized. There is one main national organization for chief officers (www.theiacp.org). Other than the labor unions however, I know of no national organization with a substantial leaning toward a cohesive agenda. Also, I am not sure there is a large enough base in policing currently that would be interested in this type of program. Bruce or others in the field, do you have any thoughts?

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Pain

So, how does one organize a fractionalized field? Possibly a cop who came up the sociology/criminology route could design a survey questionaire on the demand for DL CJ docs. Possibly every cop on the board could present this to their local labor unions, who could send it to the national level. Possibly any cop who is also a chief of police (cnovick readily comes to mind) can present it to the chief of police organization. Remember, universities are businesses like any other. If you can prove the demand, somebody will be smart enough to put out the supply side.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Pain

Hi Ted,

Erudite observations for sure! The fact of the matter is that I'm not sure there is that big of a market! I would have assumed that the marketing arms of schools with existing on ground CJ doc programs would have already identified the dollar potential of a blended or pure DL offering. Just to give you an idea of the state of things I got this by e-mail from CUNY recently after I inquired:

"The doctoral program does not offer a degree on line, nor do we offer a program through distance learning. In order to pursue the Doctorate in Criminal Justice, you must be in residence for your course work."

I'm willing to wager that we'll see a DL doc in Homeland Security before one in CJ. This, simply because the former is booming now and may be where the real money that schools need to pursue is to be found.

 

I don't know. Personally I think the whole concept of Homeland Security as an individualized degree is kind of strange. It's kind of like having a degree in "Organized Crime" or "Narcotics".

Isn't Homeland Security really just a branch of the larger law enforcement community?

In my opinion (though I note nobody has asked) the Homeland Security thing will probably fade in popularity as quickly as it was introduced.

I understand that a terrorist is a unique breed of criminal, but he/she/it is still a criminal.

Am I alone on this?

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Pain

Personally, I don't think bricks & mortar universities exhibit much common sense when it comes to marketing, inasmuch as they tend to be run by liberal arts types who think that marketing and other business-related words are dirty words. Non-traditional universities, on the other hand, tend to be run by entrepreneurial types who know how to find a need and fill it and run things like a business. Hence, the DL schools always tend to be the market leaders who are first to perceive a demand for a particular program while the B&M schools tend to be market followers or the "johnnie come latelies" who are always trying to catch up. The way to find out whether the demand is there is to ask around and see what anecdotal evidence you get first. Then, if the anecdotal evidence suggests you might be onto something, figure out how to do a formal market research study.

 

I'm inclined to qualifiedly agree

Hi IFF,

I would have to agree with you provided we don't have any more terrorist attacks. If this happens, no matter the efficacy of homeland security as a discipline, there will continue to be a call for it as a reaction.

If you look at DSH expenditures as opposed to mainstream budgeting for things like the police corps, it is apparent where the legislature wants public money to go. Note, I don't agree with this but I do see it happening. I was thinking as I wrote this that the topic was tangential to what we had been talking about originally.

I think however, that it may be directly related because of the fact that (as Ted said earlier) colleges are businesses. They must react to funding sources and therefore must see the diminished supply of publicly available money for pure CJ as opposed to the subdisipline of Homeland security. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

 

I very much agree. A degree in "Homeland Security" strikes me as downright strange. But hey, they're offering those degrees, so I guess people are buying into it.

On a different note...

Criminal Justice has a bad rap amongst many cops, both on my department (about 400 sworn officers) and on many police chat forums. Many officers falsely believe:

• If you get a degree in CJ, it's useless and you're less likely to get hired in the civilian world. And if you can't get hired as a cop, then your screwed because all you have is a degree in CJ.
• A degree in CJ is the easiest degree that you can get.
• It's better to get a degree in business management because it will help you get hired in the civilian world, as opposed to having a degree in CJ.

That seems to be the common theme amongst many officers. Well, I got a Bachelors in business management and I was bored stiff throughout the curriculum, but at least I can say that I have a degree in business management. I later got a Masters in criminology and it is the most richly rewarding academic experience I've ever had, bar none.

Moving right along...

There probably isn't a big market for Doctorates in CJ and that's why they are hard to find. However, with the advent of the internet, the market for a Doctorate in CJ is much larger because the market isn't limited to one locale, but rather, the entire country now becomes the market, which means a bigger customer-base of those wanting this particular degree. With that in mind, it will be interesting to see who is first to offer a 100% RA DL Doctorate in CJ.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Pain

Yes sir, you are most assuredly correct with that statement! The reason why I am questioning the size of the market is because even the for profits haven't identified the niche. There is NO DL Criminal Justice doc in the country from a for profit institution, just the concentrations that I mentioned earlier.

Have you read the Books Shakespeare, Einstein, and the Bottom Line by David Kirp or Universities in the Marketplace by Derek Bok? If you haven't I bet you would enjoy them!

 

Strange

Hi Me,

The people in our department have taken to calling Homeland Security "The degree du jour". More than likely they're correct. I think it is also correct in that most CJ programs don't have an incredible amount of relevance to other fields.

But, then again I can't think of a lot of crossover in other fields besides the very general "business" either. CJ programs either concentrate on criminology or policy and administration. Sure, there are the forensic programs which are even smaller, but most fall into the first two areas. Most patrol officers don't get to use much of either of these areas. Is this a fault of universities not reacting to the real world or is it a problem with the lack of true innovation in policing?

It often happens though that what cops study in CJ in school has little or no applicability to what happens in their jobs. That is certainly not always the case but is true often. I had the same richly rewarding academic experience that you did at the master's level. When I came back to work and suggested that we change things people looked at me as if I were strange. Why are there so many DL master's CJ programs from for and non profits and NO doctorates on-line?



I'm calling my congressman.

 

John....while it is true that schools are businesses I think tradition will hold out here. You may have schools that have a good solid reputation offering a Homeland Security degree...however I don't think that the "traditionalists" in the academic world will ever recognize (and probably rightfully so) a separate discipline of "Homeland Security" as in reality it is actually a segment of Criminology and Criminal Justice.

From my understandings, when Criminal Justice first began as a discipline within academia, nay sayers were pointing out how current academic fields were enough and that Criminal Justice is a superfluous vocational degree for blue collar types. However as time went Criminal Justice as a discipline began to gain credence. Now I'm too young to remember that, but some of you guys could probably put a "for instance" to what I'm talking about.

The difference between Criminal Justice as an early study and Homeland Security is that you could neatly wrap Homeland Security into a Criminal Justice program unlike trying to neatly wrap Criminal Justice into say....Psychology or Law.

So while progressive schools like APUS (American Public University) may offer the degree, I don't see general acceptance of the degree by other Universities such as large state schools.

me again......

You are absolutely right about cops being skeptical of the utility of a CJ degree and due to this skepticism, at times perception becomes reality. For instance:

The venerable FBI will put a Criminal Justice graduate WAY, WAY, WAY, down the list from someone with a degree in Accounting or Linguistics.

Because of the impact of the FBI on the Criminal Justice system, many other agencies needlessly follow suit, such as your local P.D. who would never need someone with a Masters in Linguistics who would be used as an analyst or translator in the FBI but as a patrolman in the local police force.

On the flip side, in some states that I know of, you have to have a "social" degree such as Criminal Justice to work for the Courts or the Dept. of Corrections. I.E. Wardens, Parole Officers, Bailiffs, Court Clerks and other low paying, high stress jobs that you'll never see on "Worlds Craziest Police Chases".

I love the study of Criminal Justice and I accept the limitations of that degree, however having ANY degree is better than none and I find more cops with no degree citing that all they are interested in is Criminal Justice and it is a useless degree. It sounds a lot like an excuse for one not to get off one’s butt.

Personally I think it is CRITICAL to senior law enforcement officials to have a degree in Criminal Justice in addition to a solid understanding of management.

Criminal Justice is its own discipline for a reason.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Pain

Thanks for the info on the books! I'll have to check them out!

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Pain

Dr. Gregory Mack, who earned his Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology while working as an NYPD Officer, started an organization for police officers that either had a doctoral degree, or were studying for one. I think the name was "American Association of Doctoral Law Enforcement Officers", or something like that. The fact there is no longer any mention of this on his webpage is probably an indicator of its success, or lack thereof.

On the upside, the concept of police officers earning advanced degrees is a fairly recent one. The older officers when I first started told me that back in the 1950's and 1960's, a police officer with a Bachelor's degree was an oddity, while one with a Master's degree was like seeing an alien.

Now, thanks to a very generous education incentive, I'd estimate that over 95% of my department has some type of degree, and probably 70+% have Master's degrees.

I think at this point, Nova is probably our best hope. I'm going to e-mail the director of the Criminal Justice program, and try to get an update.

 

My department offers 75% tuition reimbursement for CJ degrees and 50% reimbursement for all other degrees. However, many officers are pursuing non-CJ degrees due to the stigma that some associate with CJ degrees (as was discussed in an earlier post). Business management and public administration are extremely popular amongst officers. CJ seems to be popular amonst those who are trying to get hired as officers.

Someone else mentioned that CJ is esoteric and unique for the field of law enforcement; and that pretty much sums it all up.

 

Criminology as a part of Criminal Justice has basic problems even defining itself. How can you study crime as a naturel phenomenon using scientific methods when "What is a crime?" is a POLITICAL decision and, to a considerable extent, arbitrary?

I spent a good chunk of last year reading for the London Criminology exam (which I didn't take; long and frustrating story) and I was overawed by the clear understanding of many authors that their subject actually might not even exist in any objective sense.

I guess that Criminology is really much more sociology, maybe anthropology, possibly clinical psychology, or even public administration than it is a discipline in its own right.

I am, however, quite satisfied that it ISN'T law!