DL Pros & Cons

I have been lurking on this board for a while and it seems that this may be the best place for me to get some answers to my questions.

I just graduated from a traditonal school with a non traditional program (DePaul University, Chicago) I have a BA in Liberal Arts with a concentration in African American Health & Wellness. I have been working for the past 5 year in social services and am interested in a MA program in Psychology or a MSW. I would like to eventually go into practice as a therapist specializing in multicultural issues. Also I am interested in teaching on multicultural issues as well.

My issue is that I am relocating from Chicago to New England by the end of the year and I truly cannot afford to do a traditional grad program because I only worked parttime for the past 3 years. Also because I am looking at Maine or New Hampshire, I really don't want to do a daily commute into Boston for a pt evening program.

I am looking at applying to Antioch New England's MA in Counseling Program as well Goddard College's Counseling Psychology Program and Saybrook Graduate Center. These programs seem pretty good to me except that my former faculty advisior feels that I may be selling myself short by going into a distance program. In any event every faculty person I have spoke to about this has given me a thumbs down. Then again I am starting to think that they are biased towards DL.

Is there anyone here who has been involved with any of the schools that I have mentioned also for anyone in a couseling profession have you had any problems with employment having a DL degree. Lastly for the purposes of getting a pt job teaching at a college is having a DL degree a issue?

 

Within the New England area, there are at least three choices. All offer a self-designed M.A. in just about any subject you could think of.

Lesley University: http://www.lesley.edu/gsass/68iip.html

Goddard College: http://www.goddard.edu/indexoffcampus.htm

Norwich University: http://www.norwich.edu/vermontcollege/

Best of luck!

Bruce

 

Norwich (aka Vermont College) might be a particulary good choice, since it either is about to be or already has been acquired by Union Institute, which has very flexible and interesting doctoral programs (if you go on for the doctorate).

Vermont has some excellent programs of its own... and you might also want to check Fielding Institute and, as you've mentioned, Saybrook. Both of the latter are pretty highly regarded in psych/social work circles, with Saybrook being founded by people like ROllo May and Abe Maslow, two of the original humanistic psychology mover-shakers.

Another possibility to check out is the Institute for Transpersonal Psychology in Palo Alto, CA.

I wouldn't worry much about the idea of the DL degree being substandard. I personally know a pretty good number of practicing psychologists with degrees from Union, ITP, and Saybrook, and all are successful and seem (from what I can tell) to be well integrated with their peers who did more traditional degrees.


Best of luck... let us know what you decide.

 

Please pardon my ignorance, but can you tell me what a therapist who specializes in multicultural issues focuses on.

Paul C.

 

I spoke last week with my former Core Faculty member from my Union program regarding the acquisition of Vermont College. She says its happened. She also said the students, faculty, and staff of Vermont College are quite nervous about what is to become of them, despite reassurances by TUI that nothing will change.

Funny, this is exactly what happens when one company acquires another, even though these two entities are not-for-profit. Does anyone think TUI would refrain from making substantive changes if a) it would improve the operation of Vermont College, or b) it would improve the bottom line? To hear some around here tell it, altruism should prevail. Well, don't bet on it. Expect Vermont College to disappear, absorbed into TUI. There is no way TUI will carry all that separate staff and overhead. They will take advantages in the economies of scale involved with absorbing billing, advertising, payroll, HR, and a host of other things not academic. And because the programs are so similar--and because a learning contract-based master's is no different in execution compared to a doctorate--expect the academic side to be absorbed as well. Then Union will have to examine the cost effectiveness of having a campus in Vermont (Vermont!), along with the major cities it is currently operating in. Unless Vermont College comes with some great real estate (which I don't believe it does), b-bye!

(For those not up on their history, this program was originally part of the already-experimental Goddard College. But Goddard got strapped for cash and sold it to Norwich University, a military college. Of course, it couldn't be absorbed into Norwich's normal operations (marching hippies with crew cuts?), so it stayed off-campus and quite separate. Probably a cash cow for the university. Why else would they have purchased it? So now it has been sold again. Gee, all this buying and selling. Very commercial. Very business-like. So much for the "I'd recommend a not-for-profit school; they're so much more stable" argument.)

Rich Douglas

 

I probably didn't word it in the best way, I would like to specialize in offering couseling services to minorities. I am also interested in working with interracial families.

 

Shay - I would advise that you enquire with the appropriate state organizations about their licensing requirements for practicing psychotherapy. Where I live (Massachusetts) the most significant licenses to hold are for Psychology (require APA certified PhD) or for Social Work (requires an MSW). The least expensive MSW program is at Salem State College. They offer a part-time program too.
If you were to become employed by the Massachusetts Dept of Social Services or the Dept of Mental Health then they will pay a hefty portion of your tuition as well. I have lots of respect for the DL programs mentioned by others in this thread but none of them are going to get you a license to practice unless you follow them all the way through the PhD level (which is a great thing, if you can afford the time and the money). If any of this sounds good then let me know. I have info on all the Mass. MSW programs as well as some links to Mass. job opportunities. In either case, good luck.
Jack
(Simmons College Grad. School of Social Work)

 

Hello to a fellow MA resident! Are you sure about the APA-only requirement? I always thought that MA would accept a program "substantially in compliance with APA standards", like either Union Institute or Harvard University, neither of which is APA-accredited.

I'm admittedly ignorant about the standards for psych licensure in this great Commonwealth of ours. BTW, I'm always available for coffee if you're interested! [email protected]

Bruce

 

I was in the Antioch Mcgregor School MA program. I found Antioch to provide a high quality program.

Having a DL degree is not an issue. Just make sure it is regionally accredited. My BS, MA, and PhD were all earned nontraditionally and in addition to my regular job I have been doing part-time teaching for about 14 years. This has ranged from the community college level to teaching at a major research university.

John



------------------
John R. Wetsch, Ph.D.

B.S. '01 University of North Dakota
B.S. '84 Excelsior College (USNY/Regents)
M.A. '89 Antioch University, The McGregor School
Ph.D. '94 Nova Southeastern University

 

Hey, John-

I notice that, among your academic credentials, you list a bachelor's degree from the University of North Dakota. As a resident of Grand Forks, home of UND, I find that quite interesting. In what field, and by what method of study did you earn this degree?

 

Actually I have a pretty good stockpile of information on MSW programs in MA. I had been looking at Simmons and Boston College's MSW programs. It was my original plan to go to a traditional grad program but after 3 years of pt employment while going to school for my BA, I just can't afford a traditional program. Though I will start gathering info on the licensure requirements since that would definitely help in my decision process.

I appreciate the help, I had been spinning my wheels trying to get advice from people that I know who are all DL biased.

 

Bruce - you may well be correct in regards to the exact wording of the state law although the issue of "what constitutes 'substantial compliance'" is a slippery slope that tends to be interpreted fairly strictly. My point is that programs that are seen as being in substantial compliance with APA standards tend to be APA approved. If you're not APA approved then you won't be seen as being in substantial compliance. I believe the most frequent exception to this is when people come to this fair Commonwealth with a PhD from another country. Obviously those programs cannot be APA approved but they may be at least the equal of APA approved programs. I don't know about Union but my understanding is the the main reason that the Harvard program is not APA approved is because they do not offer a program in "Clinical Psychology." It's all experimental psych stuff in that school, no psychotherapy stuff. As for the coffee, it sounds good. I live about halfway between Worcester and Providence and work in the Metro-West area. Do you ever get out that way?
Jack [email protected]

 

Hi. I am a native North Dakotan now living in North Carolina. Originally from a small town called Killdeer (North of Dickinson). I lived in Grand Forks from 1978 - 85 and was a full-time student at UND for many years. My wife is from Bismarck and I met her in our senior year and she continued on to law school at UND.

Probably more information than needed but her law school studies required that I take a reduced load an work (we also started our family at this time). I continued taking a few courses when I could fit them in at UND and also took a lot of independent study classes.

I wanted to get my bachelors before she graduated from law school in '85. My independent study classes from other RA universities were not accepted by UND because they did not offer the same courses. I also had amassed 125 sem. hrs. of credit at UND but did not complete my two years of foreign language required for the degree (I did have one sem. of German and one sem. of French). Therefore as work became more important I started to research nontraditional programs. At the time most were known as "University Without Walls" programs but they required additional work to met their residency requirement. I then found the University of the State of New York, Thomas Edison, and Charter Oak. I settled on USNY/Regents (now Excelsior) and completed my degree without the foreign language, 154 sem. hrs. of credit, with a concentration in physics.

With all of that said, the UND business was left unfinished. I had a few free moments so I was at the UND web site and then wrote a letter to the Dean in the Arts and Sciences College explaining that I had already completed my B.S., M.A. and Ph.D. and wanted to know what I needed to do to complete my UND degree. I was pleasantly surprised with the response that they would check with the physics and philosophy departments. To sum it up, the following correspondence was to the effect of what name would I like on my diploma. I received a B.S. in interdisciplinary studies in physics and philosophy with no additional work. It was a great gesture on the part of the university.

Anyway, I know Grand Forks quite well, watch the Frozen Four on ESPN, and have many friends up there.

Go Sioux!

John

 

Dear John

If it is not being rude, but you did make mention of it, what is your 'other job' - Lawyer, Accountant or? Your web pages have always intrigued me - so much education on such a wide field, and we have spoken about this offline. As I don't still have your address, maybe I have found a fellow practitioner?

Peter French
[email protected]

 

Peter,

Not rude asking at all...

I am in the IT field. I am a Senior Technical Fellow and Principle Technical Advisor for a large defense and government contracting company. Those fancy titles mean that I manage a project team, several large projects, and provide input and planning to technology executives.

I hadn't planned on IT as a career but my Excelsior physics credential qualified me for an Air Force Space Command contractor job. I initially setup a facility that modeled nuclear missile attacks (it was interesting to see how many ways to blow up the U.S.). This type of modeling was interesting and was the "Stars Wars" defense stuff of the 70's & 80's and my time there was in the late 80's. The site I worked at was the first fully operational antiballistic missile site in the U.S. (now used for tracking purposes).

Because of my involvement in computer modeling I decided to obtain an IT credential which is what pushed me to Nova. Anyway, the rest is history and I am still working in the IT field and a continual dabbler in the 'black art' of distance education and lifelong learning.

Best,

John

 

Very interesting personal history. Thanks for sharing it. I am familiar with Kildeer, by the way. I once did a concert there.

As for me, I am a native of Bismarck (Bismarck High, class of '92) who lived in the Virginia Beach and Lynchburg, VA areas for 6 years before moving back to Grand Forks a year ago. My wife (a native Virginian) and I are enjoying it here very much. I am quite impressed with the University of North Dakota. If they had a program that matched my objectives, I would be quite enthusiastically pleased to enroll there. I have several friends who are faculty members and students.

It didn't take me long in GF to become an avid hockey fan. We had quite a run this last year with a tough finish in the national finals! You should see the new arena that's near completion. It's quite an amazing structure!

Again, thanks for sharing your story. Always fun to encounter others with ND ties.

 

Intersting as I had property and consulting involvements in the Neche and St Vincents areas - pigs being fattened on pineapples and peaches.

The things that a global CPA gets involved with.

I was working on special investment projects for the Chinese community in NY which took me to Hong Kong and Vancouver a lot, so why not do something a littled varied to offset the boredom.

By the way, how many attorney/CPA's are in your department?

Regards

Peter

 

I always enjoy running into other folks from ND, online or in person. The winters must account for a communal statewide bonding experience! {by the way, I am offering an apology to the admins for getting this thread off topic}

Anyway, my wife is a Bismarck High grad. I also became an avid hockey fan while there. During my freshman year at UND I was in the hockey wing of the dorm with many of the players. It was fun but not too conducive for studying. Have read about the new arena, who knows -- I may get back up there for a game sometime. When the hockey team plays Univ. of Minn. do the dead gophers still make it on the ice? My e_mail is: [email protected]

Yes, the school is very good. When I was a student many of the professors I talked with were down on nontraditional education. It has been great to see the school growing with its distance ed. offerings today.

John

-- A UND degree through the 23 year plan --

 

Fattening Pigs is important to hog producers. A worthwhile activity. I've been through the areas you mentioned.

I don't have any lawyers/CPAs in my department as it is comprised of programmers, analysts, statisticians, and various system administrator type. Our legal dept. is at corporate HQ where many lawyers and I am sure in other depts. accountants are employed. Web site: http:\\www.prc.com

John

 

Hello Shay, welcome to the forum. I’ve traveled your path and I’ll share my observations. But first let me tell you my bona fides.

My masters is in social work and after several years of practice I decided to go on for the doctorate. This was in the 70s when it was as competitive to win entry into clinical psychology as med school. Alas, I’d spent a bit too much time savoring the 60s during undergrad and my GPA is, umm, shall we say modest. So I enrolled in a counselor ed doctoral program at a major state university. Psychology had won the licensure battle and was well on the way to winning the vendorship war. Which, since dollars are involved, is where the rubber really meets the road. In response to market forces counselor ed programs set about to change the degree designation to counseling psychology, seek APA-approval, and most allowed currently enrolled students to take advantage of the new designation. Alas, owing to internecine conflict, students in my program were not given this opportunity. We sat in exactly the same courses but we could not receive the brass ring. We were second-class by default and the general zeitgeist went something like “what sort of scam can I run to get by the licensure board?” It became known as going through the back door. My initial resolution was to revert back to social work and I did have a few interviews for academic jobs. I cannot translate into mere words what it felt like to be a loser … by fiat.

With the idea of ‘in for a penny …’ I took advantage of a recently developed provision to retrain academic into applied psychologists. At the time the academic market was soft and there were a lot of people who needed work. APA endorsed a track for “respecialization in psychology.” Generally, this requires two years of coursework and the yearlong pre-doctoral internship. Content areas include personality, psychological assessment, therapy/counseling coursework and practica. Upon completion the student earns a certificate of equivalence in clinical, counseling or school psychology. I defended my dissertation and started on the new program the same month. My “retread” (as they came to be known) required one year on campus and an internship. Alas, Murphy lives … frequently quite nearby. I was the first respecialization candidate in my new department and as things developed I wasn’t eligible. One’s doc had to be in psychology – ed psych, bio psych, you name it as long as the degree designation read psychology – and counselor ed didn’t get it. The boundary was initially fairly porous but some programs retooled candidates from grossly unrelated disciplines and things tightened up. That was a low time and as one wag said, “your retread went flat.” I was crushed and about ready to just give up on professional life and apply for a job back at US Steel where I started out after high school. My thoughts ran something like I shoulda taken that millwright apprenticeship after all. Fortune shone on me when the Department Chair and the Graduate Dean gave me a one-time offer. I would meet the University one-year residency standard and if I agreed to repeat prelims and write a second dissertation all my coursework would transfer and I could take the Ph.D. from the new program. In a mix of desperation and joy I jumped on the opportunity but it was a grueling year. In the end I wound up with the brass ring: APA-approved degree and internship and I have a terrific job for which I would never have been eligible with a set of cobbled up credentials. Even if I had been able to “go through the back door” and obtain state licensure I could not be hired into my current position without an APA-approved doctorate and APA-approved internship. I practice at a medical school affiliated hospital where I am a supervisor in an APA-approved internship program; moreover, I have daily contact with med students and residents. This is the stuff that averts professional ennui and keeps you excited. Moreover, I don’t have to fight the HMOs and the like. It is, truly, a dream come true.

So my first recommendation is this: whatever path you elect to pursue go through the front door. Now, my thoughts about the options you’ve enumerated. 1) The MSW is a great option; short of the Ph.D. in psychology there is no more respected credential. It will take you where you want to go. One thing you should be aware of is that the MSW doesn’t have the same clinical training focus as in the past. My MSW program was like a mini-psychology program including coursework in personality, psychopathology, group therapy, interviewing skills and, oh I can’t recall what else now. I don’t mean a few lectures but individual courses. Current MSW grads frequently find they have to play catch-up ball to prepare for independent practice licensure. 2) MA in psychology. APA does not endorse independent practice at the master’s level and if you take an MA in psychology it will likely have a general and not an applied focus. 3) M.Ed. in Counseling. I have found there to exist a remarkable degree of variability in these programs. Some do a credible job and teach more clinical work than you will likely receive in either an MSW or MA psychology program. But, there are some truly awful programs so be a discriminating consumer. 4) Ph.D. psychologist (which you did not identify but I thought I’d comment). This is a grueling degree and many psychologists in my age cohort feel that the market is so saturated it is not a good option. Moreover, if the student elects to attend a private university or free-standing school he or she may have a crushing debt load, think 100K, on graduation. Frankly, psychology doesn’t have the earning potential of law or medicine to support this expense. I encourage persons who are leaning in this direction to review articles by Bridget Murray and John Grohol in the February, 1999 APA Monitor. I believe back issues are available through the APA website. Nevertheless, it can be a great profession so all I ask is do your due diligence and, above all else, attend an APA-approved program. Which seriously restricts options if one is limited to distance learning. I have no quibble with DL, I’m taking a second BS in IS this way, although I’m lucky I was able to attend a bricks and mortar psychology school. While I learn the skills, I have no idea about the IS culture which is a huge limitation. I’m very glad that I was able to take complex courses – like neuropsychological assessment and the Rorschach – f2f and have practicum supervisors observe my fledgling work through a one-way mirror in realtime. Listening to tapes just isn’t the same.

So what do I suggest to folk who are interested in the helping professions? In my estimation the best thing going, at least in the US, is the PA-C. The earning power is great, especially for a two year program, and for those interested in mental health the student can become a psychiatric PA and have the option of doing both counseling and prescribing. If you can get in, that is; the competition is fierce. One medical student I encountered wanted to go PA but couldn’t get accepted.

Good luck.