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  1. #17
    Bill Grover is offline Registered User
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    Originally posted by Jimmy Clifton


    Cannot believe I said this. You could have gotten me back Bill, for my previous corrections of your grammatical errors. You're a good non-retributionist Calvinist, aren't you? :D
    ===

    Didn't even notice, but I certainly will remind you of it if ever needed;)
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    Assistant Professor of Theological Studies and Director of Distance Education, Faith Seminary, Salem.

    Doctor of Theology, The University of Zululand...Th.M. , M.Div. (Equivalency), Western Seminary...MA in Religion, Point Loma Nazarene University...ThB , BA, in Bible, Linda Vista Baptist...Teaching Credentials: The University of San Diego (English)... Oregon State University (Special Ed.).

  2. #18
    Steve Levicoff is offline Registered User
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    Reality Check

    How easily we forget, campers . . . The credibility of an institution is determined, in part, based on its history .

    It's been quite a while since I've quoted myself, but here's what I wrote about LBU and it's affiliates in Name It & Frame It. This is from the 4th and last edition, published in 1994, and is current as of that time. While I'm sure there have been changes, here's the big picture on LBU from a few years back . . .

    LOUISIANA BAPTIST UNIVERSITY
    2835 Hollywood, Suite 310
    Shreveport, Louisiana 71108
    (318) 635-5110


    Under the umbrella name of Baptist Christian Schools, the university grants degrees through the doctorate level, as well as a phony certification in marriage and family counseling (see Chapter 11 under "National Association of Marriage and Family Counselors"). Claiming accreditation by the unrecognized Accrediting Commission International, the university is affiliated with the Louisiana Baptist Theological Seminary (also listed in this chapter). They have also been granted candidacy status by the Transnational Association of Christian Schools (TRACS; see discussion at the beginning of this chapter and in Chapter 3), which lists them as "Baptist Christian College." Formerly known as Baptist Christian University, the school is wholly owned by the Baptist Tabernacle of Shreveport. Advertises or has advertised in Pulpit Helps.

    LOUISIANA BAPTIST THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY
    P.O. Box 503
    Aurora, Missouri 65805
    (417) 678-0644


    A division of Baptist Christian Schools in Shreveport, Louisiana (see listing in this chapter), this degree mill's catalog states, "It is the Seminary's intention to pursue regional or professional accreditation. Customarily, a new school must operate for 5 years before applying for candidate status. The full accreditation process then takes 2 or 3 years of further evaluation." Yet the catalog cover indicates that the seminary has been around since 1961. (Of course, if they're speaking in terms of *dog* years, they should get around to applying for accreditation soon.) The seminary answers this charge by explaining that even though Baptist Christian Schools has been in existence since 1961, the seminary itself has established in 1989 (which makes them guilty of misrepresenting their founding date in their own catalog). Their parent institution, Baptist Christian Schools, claims accreditation from the unrecognized Accrediting Commission International. See also the listing for Louisiana Baptist University in this chapter, as well as the listing for the National Association of Marriage and Family Counselors in Chapter 11 for information on their alleged counseling certifications. Advertises or has advertised in The Sword of the Lord.


    NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF MARRIAGE AND FAMILY COUNSELORS
    3031 Hollywood
    Shreveport, Louisiana 71108
    (318) 631-8875


    Sponsored by Louisiana Baptist University (formerly known as Baptist Christian University), a degree mill listed in Chapter 12, this credential mill advertises, "Each member receives a beautiful Counselors Certificate imprinted with your name and suitable for framing. This certificate enables you to display your credential as a Certified Christian Counselor . . . No on [sic] would think of seeking medical advice from one who claimed to be a medical doctor and did not display his or her credentials. The Lord's work deserves ever more diligence. In a time where so much that we do is under increased scrutiny, this can give added credibility to your roll [sic] as a Christian Counselor." The requirements for membership include a B.A. degree in any field; therefore, no formal education in counseling is required. Also affiliated with Louisiana Baptist Theological Seminary, listed in Chapter 12. Their certification, which is worthless, should not to be confused with that of the American Association of Marriage and Family Therapy in Washington, DC, a legitimate agency recognized by the U.S. Department of Education and CORPA.
    (Yeah, kiddies, I know - CORPA is now CHEA. But remember, this was written in 1994, and I've reprinted it as it originally appeared at that time.)

  3. #19
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    Re: Reality Check

    Originally posted by Steve Levicoff
    How easily we forget, campers . . . The credibility of an institution is determined, in part, based on its history.
    I seem to remember some looming questions regarding the early days of Union, as well as UoP , Touro & NCU. All were called millish by some.

  4. #20
    bing is offline Registered User
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    Re: Reality Check

    So, is everyone who applies for accreditation a "Candidate". Did TRACS just reject them afterall?

    Bing


    Originally posted by Steve Levicoff
    How easily we forget, campers . . . The credibility of an institution is determined, in part, based on its history .

    It's been quite a while since I've quoted myself, but here's what I wrote about LBU and it's affiliates in Name It & Frame It. This is from the 4th and last edition, published in 1994, and is current as of that time. While I'm sure there have been changes, here's the big picture on LBU from a few years back . . .

    (Yeah, kiddies, I know - CORPA is now CHEA. But remember, this was written in 1994, and I've reprinted it as it originally appeared at that time.)
    -Continual Learner-
    1 Jn 4:7

  5. #21
    Bill Grover is offline Registered User
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    Originally posted by PatsFan
    I looked at their website. They are an intriguing school. They seem sincere about what they want to provide and may actually offer some quality courses. They try to provide a rationale for the fact that most of their professors have terminal degrees from their institution, perhaps another reason why they haven't considered TRACS accreditation like some of the other BBFI schools like Boston Baptist College:

    "LBU has not sought either regional or national accreditation by a secular accrediting agency. Because of our strong stance on inspiration of the scriptures, doctrinal purity and pre-millennialism many of our administration and faculty hold terminal degrees from LBU. However, they also hold over 90 different degrees from other colleges and universities."
    ==



    Oh, that's the because?

    Yes, I know, LBU would not accept accreditation even if the accreditor would on bended knee plead with them to do so:

    "...Oh please, please accept our accreditation"

    ..."nope, nope, nope, we're too pure ."

    The thing is, neither RA nor TRACS requires a school to relinquish any "doctrinal purity" AT ALL! NOT A BIT!!

    Let LBU specifically show, then,what Western Seminary gave up in doctrinal purity by being RA/ATS.

    Let LBU specifically show, then, what Luther Rice gave up in doctrinal purity by becoming TRACS.

    It is NOT that they gave up something in doctrine, it is that they were willing to meet recognized standards of quality.

    So that is one subterfuge by LBU which is unwilling to meet such standards.

    Neither is the issue how many degrees from assorted colleges LBU profs have, the issue is how many have accredited docs in the area of instruction. And LBU knows this.

    The thing is, having an accredited doc in the area of instruction is a standard when teaching grad coursework.

    THAT is why if one is not pure and reads the ETS journal ,one will see a great number of student-scholars who every year acquire hard earned accredited degrees either in the US or in foreign schools.

    That is why if one is not pure and reads catalogues of accredited seminaries ,one will in the main see profs with accredited docs.

    This has to do with doing what is required to achieve the ability to teach grad level coursework in a subject that is loved. It better assures ACADEMIC INTEGRITY and it does NOTHING to harm the DOCTRINAL PURITY of the school.

    That is another subterfuge by LBU which, again, is unwilling to meet such standards..

    Instead, they cover up by appealing to a need to stay pure. Hogwash!
    Last edited by Bill Grover; 07-25-2005 at 07:04 AM.
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    Assistant Professor of Theological Studies and Director of Distance Education, Faith Seminary, Salem.

    Doctor of Theology, The University of Zululand...Th.M. , M.Div. (Equivalency), Western Seminary...MA in Religion, Point Loma Nazarene University...ThB , BA, in Bible, Linda Vista Baptist...Teaching Credentials: The University of San Diego (English)... Oregon State University (Special Ed.).

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  7. #22
    telefax is offline Registered User
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    I agree with Bill. I don't think that LBU is refusing accreditation. That has not been the practice of the BBFI or its schools in the past, many of which have been accredited for years. I would describe the BBFI as separatistic fundamentalists, but not nearly to the extent of those that have historically refused to even consider accreditation.

    Most have followed the turnaround of BJU on the accreditation issue. In addition, I have talked to several high quality schools within the last year that had been accreditation holdouts for genuinely separatist reasons. Central Baptist Theological Seminary (MN), Central Baptist Theological Seminary of Virginia, and Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary are now all applying for DoE/CHEA approved accreditation, or at least admit the benefits and legitimacy of doing so.

    I think this is very positive.
    Those who claim education is easy or fast aren't here to help.

  8. #23
    bing is offline Registered User
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    Many have posted that they think LBU is a substantial school. Does all the moves toward accreditation with BJU, and the other schools, point to LBU having to move toward TRACS to stay credible? Their reasoning now for holding out seems faulty to me...if not downright dishonest. If other schools in the BBFI world are accredited then this would seem the best move for LBU.



    Originally posted by Dave G.
    I agree with Bill. I don't think that LBU is refusing accreditation. That has not been the practice of the BBFI or its schools in the past, many of which have been accredited for years. I would describe the BBFI as separatistic fundamentalists, but not nearly to the extent of those that have historically refused to even consider accreditation.

    Most have followed the turnaround of BJU on the accreditation issue. In addition, I have talked to several high quality schools within the last year that had been accreditation holdouts for genuinely separatist reasons. Central Baptist Theological Seminary (MN), Central Baptist Theological Seminary of Virginia, and Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary are now all applying for DoE/CHEA approved accreditation, or at least admit the benefits and legitimacy of doing so.

    I think this is very positive.
    -Continual Learner-
    1 Jn 4:7

  9. #24
    telefax is offline Registered User
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    I do think LBU's rationale for not seeking accreditation is lacking. I hear they are seeking to continue improving the quality of their programs, and I wish them well in this.

    I would be more impressed by the increase in quality brought by the changes needed to attain accreditation, rather than the accreditation itself. I am not convinced that accreditation automatically grants credibility (witness accreditation candidate Trinity College of the Bible and Theological Seminary, aka Toledo Bible College, and parent school of the totally fraudulent Master's Divinity School).

    Last edited by telefax; 07-25-2005 at 08:41 AM.
    Those who claim education is easy or fast aren't here to help.

  10. #25
    Bill Grover is offline Registered User
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    LBU has somewhat of a captive audience as it is the only school of that denomination to offer docs in Bible /Theology. The logic of some is that denominational approval indicates academic substance and rigor. IMO it falls short of doing that. Of course it does provide a utility in some Baptist circles.

    But I think the real test of the substance of the academic rigor of a school is whether or not the school's programs require rigorous students. But how is student rigor to be measured?

    One way is to observe the thinking of graduates. So, if one can find the Jason Gastrich thread , one will see at least the minimal expectations of LBU grad programs in Bible. For in that thread we see one who got high marks in LBUs master program in Bible, and who was being successful in LBU DOC program in Bible , yet he fancifully imagines that Strong's concordance is quite complete enough to do lexical studies thankyou. Run that by ANY head of a doc in Bible program in ANY accredited evangelical school and hear for yourself the heehaws!

    So, while the Jasons of the Christian world breeze unhindered by the demands of rigor , others as my friend Ed labor a hard and long four years at DTS to earn a MASTERS (not even a doc)! And another very competent and studious Australian pal who emailed me yesterday struggles he says to make headway in the Biblical doc under Loubser at Unizul!

    Another test of the rigor a student undergoes is whether or not that student can by studying at LBU enter and finish RA or equivalent doc programs. Ed could, and I did. So, show me just a few LBU grads in the masters in Bible/Theology who by that training were prepared to enter and completed an accredited doc in Bible/Theology.

    I should say that I do not deny that one could do rigorous work there. But the question is MUST they? Neither do I deny the sincerity of most involved with LBU.

    So, does LBU have SOME substance? Yes. But let's not get carried away with our praise and slide into pretense.
    Last edited by Bill Grover; 07-25-2005 at 09:23 AM.
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    Assistant Professor of Theological Studies and Director of Distance Education, Faith Seminary, Salem.

    Doctor of Theology, The University of Zululand...Th.M. , M.Div. (Equivalency), Western Seminary...MA in Religion, Point Loma Nazarene University...ThB , BA, in Bible, Linda Vista Baptist...Teaching Credentials: The University of San Diego (English)... Oregon State University (Special Ed.).

  11. #26
    bing is offline Registered User
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    Looking at their faculty, I see only one person who received a degree from LBU then went on to obtain a doctorate from an accredited school. Bruce Melton received his degrees from LBU and then later got a Liberty DMin. I'm no theologian or divinity expert but I am assuming that a DMin is nothing like a ThD type degree. So, it looks like Liberty at least accepted his master's/bachelor's degrees.

    Bing

    Originally posted by Bill Grover

    Another test of the rigor a student undergoes is whether or not that student can by studying at LBU enter and finish RA or equivalent doc programs. Ed could, and I did. So, show me just a few LBU grads in the masters in Bible/Theology who by that training were prepared to enter and completed an accredited doc in Bible/Theology.

    I should say that I do not deny that one could do rigorous work there. But the question is MUST they? Neither do I deny the sincerity of most involved with LBU.

    So, does LBU have SOME substance? Yes. But let's not get carried away with our praise and slide into pretense.
    -Continual Learner-
    1 Jn 4:7

  12. #27
    telefax is offline Registered User
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    Bill G.: "Another test of the rigor a student undergoes is whether or not that student can by studying at LBU enter and finish RA or equivalent doc programs."

    I think this is a valid point. A couple years ago, I posted a list here of graduates of several very rigorous but unaccredited seminaries, who had gone on to doctoral programs at Dallas, Trinity, Westminster, etc. It wasn't hard at all to find such names.
    Those who claim education is easy or fast aren't here to help.

  13. #28
    Bill Grover is offline Registered User
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    a DMin is in ministry, not Bible or Theology. A DMin does not prepare one by the TRACS standard to teach Bib/Theo at the grad level. That's one reason why ACCS lost TRACS accred. No PhDs or ThDs in those areas.

    I think LBU has two from Unisa and one or two others. That's good start. I am not saying that LBU cannot or has not improved.

    I have no problem with any LBU courses in ministry. That is not my area and I'm not qualified to comment on that. Let Russell judge that.

    So yes, accredited or the equivalent ThDs /PhDs in Bible/Theol was my test. I can show , with Dave's help, that many grads of several UA schools as Central or Detroit or BJU finish accred docs in Bib/Theo , but who can show me just , say. five LBU grads who did?

    Maybe so, I don't know! If there are, someone educate me.

    Don't take my criticism as a condemnation. It is only meant to say that there is much room for improvement.

    I now have a date in August to meet with the pres of an unaccredited seminary. I will offer my time gratuitously to that school . But they may not need me as they have already 8-10 very qualified profs. But I hope sooner or later to find a place to serve.

    But you know what? Despite the good, but small, faculty , the highest degree that school offers is the MDiv! They offer NO PhD/ThD because they realize what such advanced offerings require in faculty if the degree is much earned by coursework as opposed to research.

    But LBU does not realize . And that's another evidence of the diff and the unwillingness of LBU to either meet respectable standards or to give up advanced programs until that is done.
    Last edited by Bill Grover; 07-25-2005 at 10:09 AM.
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    Doctor of Theology, The University of Zululand...Th.M. , M.Div. (Equivalency), Western Seminary...MA in Religion, Point Loma Nazarene University...ThB , BA, in Bible, Linda Vista Baptist...Teaching Credentials: The University of San Diego (English)... Oregon State University (Special Ed.).

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  15. #29
    Steve Levicoff is offline Registered User
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    Re: Re: Reality Check

    Originally posted by Russell
    I seem to remember some looming questions regarding the early days of Union, as well as UoP , Touro & NCU. All were called millish by some.
    Nice try, Russell. But last I remember, neither Union, UoP , Touro, nor NCU sougght nor accepted membership in the Accrediting Commission International.

    On that note alone, LBU is a joke. [iad]Res ipsa loquitur,[/i] and all that . . . :D

    As most of the old-timers know, I have always thought that TRACS was also a joke (having devoted an entire book to the subject). Even with their DoEd recognition, TRACS degrees are still second-class credentials when it comes to RA schools.

    By the way, a note of trivia, since I've seen LBU, BBF, and Liberty all mentioned in this thread: While Liberty is not a BBF school, keep in mind that Jerry Falwell graduated from Baptist Bible College, which is a BBF school. However, last I checked, "Doctor Jerry Fallwell" (as he called himself when he left a message on my answering machine a few years back - we later did reach each other to discuss previously mentioned book on TRACS) has only a three-year degree from BBC.

    Methinks, in part, that all of these amateur theologians are taking themselves - and LBU - far too seriously.

  16. #30
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    Re: Re: Re: Reality Check

    Originally posted by Steve Levicoff
    ...TRACS degrees are still second-class credentials when it comes to RA schools...Methinks, in part, that all of these amateur theologians are taking themselves - and LBU - far too seriously.
    This post is not meant to be argumentative.

    Would it be fair to say that some RA degrees are second-class to other RA degrees?

    Aren't all theologians amateurs since no one fully comprehends the Almighty and His attributes?

  17. #31
    Bill Grover is offline Registered User
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    Re: Re: Re: Reality Check

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Steve Levicoff
    I have always thought that TRACS was also a joke (having devoted an entire book to the subject).

    ===

    Aren't you taking TRACS and yourself too seriously:D
    www.otsweb.org/

    Assistant Professor of Theological Studies and Director of Distance Education, Faith Seminary, Salem.

    Doctor of Theology, The University of Zululand...Th.M. , M.Div. (Equivalency), Western Seminary...MA in Religion, Point Loma Nazarene University...ThB , BA, in Bible, Linda Vista Baptist...Teaching Credentials: The University of San Diego (English)... Oregon State University (Special Ed.).

  18. #32
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    Re: Re: Re: Reality Check

    Originally posted by Steve Levicoff
    Nice try, Russell. But last I remember, neither Union, UoP , Touro, nor NCU sougght nor accepted membership in the Accrediting Commission International.

    On that note alone, LBU is a joke. [iad]Res ipsa loquitur,[/i] and all that . . . :D
    No attempt at making a "nice try," Steve. My observation remains intact, Union, UoP , Touro, NCU, etc., all were considered mills, by some, in the early days.

    In the mid-90's LBU did obtain ACI accreditation, which it held for one year, then severed the relationship. Why? LBU's president stated the reason as this: After learning more about ACI and some of the schools it accredits, it was not in LBU's best interest to maintain the accreditation. For the past (almost) ten years, LBU's position is that to remain an unaccredited religious institution, training primarily those who will pursue some type of ministry position, is much better than claiming accreditation that has no utility.

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