How would this degree be viewed outside of Oregon?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by laferney, Jul 23, 2005.

Loading...
  1. laferney

    laferney Active Member

    Every once in a while I consider enrolling in the Ph.D program in Health Sciences offered at the Medical University of the Americas.
    http://www.mua.edu/odprg_health.php
    http://www.mua.edu/index.php
    It is based on doing a dissertation similar to other research doctorates offered elsewhere and is reasonably priced. The frustrating thing is that it remains on the Oregon and Michigan “unaccredited” lists. It does not appear to be a diploma mill, but Oregon’s statement that it “does not meet Oregon standards for foreign degrees.” has kept me away.
    I have looked at the pros and cons of the issues around this program.
    Pros: It is listed by the WHO and approved and chartered by the Government of St. Christopher-Nevis in 1998. This website indicates standards for accreditation are in place.
    http://www.stkittsnevis.net/accreditation.html
    Value Med also rates it among the better Caribbean schools. It requires work similar to other doctoral programs.
    On the “con” side Oregon states “St. Kitts authorization does not meet legal standards of the State of Oregon.” They do not call it a degree mill like they do some other listings but say” ODA has no evidence that this is an accredited or otherwise acceptable provider of postsecondary education meeting Oregon standards.”
    I do not know if NACEs or the American Association of Collegiate Registrars and Admissions Officers (AACRAO) would consider this equivalent to a US degree. I wrote but have not received a response. Some non-NACES credentialing services would - but as previous posts indicated they are of questionable use. I know some agencies do not review schools from St. Kitts and Nevis based on questions raised about Berne U.
    I do not live in Oregon or Michigan. I would not use this degree for any state or licensing purposes as forbidden by their laws. I would use this degree to bolster my credential as a community college adjunct faculty member.
    My concern is the acceptance of this degree in general (outside of Oregon and MI.)- would it be seen as a diploma mill, as a degree equivalent to a U.S degree or a respectable but unaccredited degree?
     
  2. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    Not just Oregon

    Oregon is well-known for its tough stance on unaccredited degrees, but it's not the only state with such policies. According to the Oregon ODA, unaccredited degrees are also illegal in North Dakota and New Jersey. And unaccredited doctoral degrees (like the one you are interested in) are apparently illegal in Indiana. So check your state regulations carefully.

    Oregon's regulations are actually more liberal than those of North Dakota. In Oregon, you can legally advertise your unaccredited degree if you add a disclaimer. But North Dakota has an outright ban: "...it is illegal to use a false credential for employment, higher education admission or in connection with a business or profession. Doing so carries a Class A misdemeanor penalty; a one-year imprisonment and/or a fine of $2,000 may be imposed." No allowance for disclaimers.
     
  3. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    I would be concerned, if I were you. For example, there are people that seem to spend a large amount of energy running around defending their unaccredited degrees like Berne University. They even tried to get people fired from their job because the person had said something negative about Berne University. You don't want to turn into one of those sad people.

    Another sad thing about unaccredited degrees is that the utility of all unaccredited degrees (whether they are roaring diploma mills or places like Berne) is about the same. Then when people find out that your degree is unaccredited they might accuse you of being an academic fraud. Do a Google search of California Coast University and mill. There are multiple examples of this happening. Is it fair? Yes from the point of view that all diploma mill are unaccredited and by association so is this other place but no it's not fair from the point of view that you had to do alot of work and then get called an academic fraud anyway.
     
  4. laferney

    laferney Active Member

    CALDOG
    Thanks for the warning about other states but your statement "And unaccredited doctoral degrees (like the one you are interested in) " is the crux of the question.
    Would this program be seen as unaccredited outside of Oregon and MI.?
    You also mention" North Dakota has an outright ban: "...it is illegal to use a false credential ...." Is a doctoral degree from this university (MUA) a false credential?
     
  5. bing

    bing New Member

    Well, I know an MD degree from MUA is not a false degree. There are medical residents with medical degrees from MUA. Not sure how the PhD is looked at from MUA. However, none of the medical education means nothing if you cannot pass the USMLE 1.


     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    laferney:
    Is this even DL? With all the negative information available on unaccredited (and Carribbean)schools why would you still consider this?

    Why would this be frustrating? I would think it would be a good thing to find out

    .
    One has to wonder if there is such a thing.
     
  7. laferney

    laferney Active Member

    from FWD
    Is this even DL? With all the negative information available on unaccredited (and Carribbean)schools why would you still consider this?

    Yes it is DL. Go to website to see program description. Where is this negative info on Caribbean degrees posted? Outside of the scandal that took place years ago I don't see the situation as negative. These schools allow for medical practice in the USA and the pros and cons of carribean medical study has been posted on several sites.
    And again outside of Oregon and MI. is this degree considered unaccredited? Until I hear from NACES or AACRAO I don't know.

    "The frustrating thing is that it remains on the Oregon and Michigan “unaccredited” lists. Why would this be frustrating?"

    It is frustrating because this may prejudice a program that is worthwhile and useful in other states. For example in Massachsuetts graduates of MUA's BSN program can be certified as school nurses and in MI. , even though it is on the "List" , there
    are MUA grads in medical residencies!

    "a respectable but unaccredited degree?
    One has to wonder if there is such a thing."

    John Bear uses this description in his guide. I believe it does exist- but that's another post!
     
  8. Delta

    Delta Active Member

    Impressive faculty!

    MUA's faculty looks very impressive! http://www.mua.edu/facul.php

    Another interesting point is that you say unaccredited when in fact the University appears to be accredited by the government of St. Kitts and Nevis. See link:
    http://www.stkittsnevis.net/accreditation.html

    This is a foreign school and would probably need evaluation by a reputable foreign transcript evaluator for utility in the United States. I would recommend asking the school if they have graduates that have had their transcripts evaluated by evaluators such as these:

    Adademic Credentials Evaluation Institute, Inc.
    P.O. Box 6928
    Beverly Hills, CA 90212

    Phone: (310) 275-3530
    www.acei1.com



    Education Credential Evaluators, Inc.
    P.O. Box 514070
    Milwaukee, WI 53203-3470

    Phone: (414) 289-3400
    www.ece.org



    International Education Research Foundations, Inc.
    P.O. Box 3665
    Culver City, CA 90231-3665

    Phone: (310) 258-9451
    www.ierf.org



    World Education Services, Inc.
    P.O. Box 26879
    San Francisco, CA 94126-6879

    Phone: (415)677-9378
    www.wes.org
     
  9. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    ND regs

    Both ODA and my post above contain links to a very clear, "plain English" brochure on North Dakota's policy. It states, in part:

    "In North Dakota, only credentials from legitimate institutions of higher education are acceptable for use in employment...Legitimate institutions are those that are accredited by organizations recognized by the U.S. secretary of education or otherwise approved by the North Dakota State Board for Career and Technical Education...For information about a specific international institution, call CTE at the phone number listed above."

    Would Medical University of the Americas qualify as "legitimate" under this definition? If not, then their degrees would be banned.

    Unfortunately, there is no easy way to determine the exact status of a particular unaccredited degree under the laws of every state. You will have to do your own research. Based on my very limited knowledge:

    Oregon: the degree in question would be illegal unless it was always used with a disclaimer

    Michigan: degree is listed as unacceptable for civil service employment

    North Dakota: degree may not be from a "legitimate institution", and may therefore be banned, as noted above

    New Jersey: unaccredited degrees are reportedly banned (according to ODA)

    Indiana: unaccredited doctoral degrees are reportedly banned (according to ODA)

    California: the school in question is not on the list of California-approved medical schools, so their MD degrees would be unacceptable for a medical license, but their degrees may be legal for other purposes

    On a more positive note, degrees from Medical University of the Americas should be 100% legal and acceptable throughout St. Kitts & Nevis. As long as you only use your degree there, you should have no problems.
     
  10. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    Unaccredited professors

    Like these guys?

    Or like this guy ?

    Or maybe these guys? (note: I'm afraid there are some discouraging comments in this article about the rigor of St. Kitts' accreditation procedures)

    The media loves to cover college professors with questionable degrees. Seems like these sorts of news stories show up here at degreeinfo with some regularity. You could be a celebrity !
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2005
  11. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    In addition to Oregon, New Jersey, Illinois, and North Dakota, according to Alan Contreras there are now comparable laws in Nevada, Maine, Texas and Michigan, and others under consideration in other state legislatures. I think we are seeing a real trend here.
     
  12. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    John, Didn't one of the old BG's explain that the situation in Florida was that unaccredited degrees are banned and, as such, the Rev. Billy Graham had best not advertise himself as Dr. Billy Graham if he plans on one more crisade in Florida? What ever happened with that situation?
     
  13. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    Oregon state law defines "accreditation" to mean accreditation by a US Dept. of Education recognized accreditor or by its foreign equivalent. By 'equivalent', it means a comparable process that enforces a comparable standard.

    Unfortunately the WHO will list any school that's forwarded to it by the government of a soverign state. A WHO listing doesn't always imply the equivalent of American accreditation.

    I think that while it might not be immediately dismissed as a degree mill, it would definitely be under a dark cloud because it's one of those off-shore mystery medical schools.

    So there would be an added burden on you to convince skeptics why they should like it.

    I don't want to sound too dismissive here. There are a number of unaccredited programs that I could imagine enrolling in myself. But most of those offer unusual programs that I find fascinating, and in most cases I would be studying that stuff for my own personal benefit, not to win approval from anyone else. So I think that you need to be very clear about why you want to do this.

    If you hope to convince skeptics to join you in liking MUA, then you probably need to be able to point to some of its cool features. In search of some, I just Googled the school, searching for "Medical University of the Americas" site:.edu. It generated 104 hits, many of which were from mua.edu itself. (The same search for University of California San Francisco generated 174,000 hits.)

    One thing that didn't impress me a whole lot is their pre-med program taught by Warnborough University:

    http://www.warnborough.edu/premed/premed.htm

    I did find a number of MUA graduates who are doing residencies at American hospitals, which is a positive, albeit a rather unsettling one.

    There were also several alumni notes about people who had earned bachelors degrees and then gone off to medical school at MUA.

    But while it does seem to have some success as a 'back-door' medical school, I didn't see any hits about health sciences research, which isn't a very good thing if the goal is to earn a Ph.D. in the subject.

    A search for "medical university of the Americas" site:nih.gov generated two hits, both papers in pubmed.

    Web_Results 1 - 2 of 2 from nih.gov for "medical university of the americas". (0.24 seconds)_

    Schistosomiasis.
    Medical University of the Americas, Charlestown, Nevis, West Indies. Publication Types:. Review; Review, Tutorial. MeSH Terms: ...
    www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve& db=PubMed&list_uids=11961151&dopt=Abstract - Similar_pages

    Reductionism gets a soul.
    Medical University of the Americas, Charlestown, Nevis, West Indies. [email protected] MeSH Terms Biochemistry/education* ...
    www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve& db=PubMed&list_uids=14603400&dopt=Abstract - Similar_pages


    The same search for UCSF generated 140,000 nih.gov hits. Just the first half of the first page had stuff on human subject research, stem cells, prostate cancer, fetal treatment, a brain tumor progress review, HIV AIDS diagnosis, a workshop on clinial consequences of marijuana, an NIH Director's Pioneer Award, gene transfer, care and use of laboratory animals, technology development of innovative molecular analysis, a National Cancer Institute Howard Temin Award, UCSF hosting the 90'th Annual Meeting of the American Association for Cancer Research, human clinical trials, NIH lectures, the history of neurological surgery at UCSF...

    So the problem with MUA seems to be that it is an off-shore mystery medical school claiming accreditation that's just as mysterious as the school is. If the goal is a Ph.D. that will receive respect in the academic world, then research work is important. MUA seems to be a virtual non-entity in that regard, nothing like what a strong medical school looks like.

    As the little old lady hollered in that ancient commercial: "Where's the beef???"
     
  14. Bill Huffman

    Bill Huffman Well-Known Member

    As explained in the newer BG's, the Florida law (one of the first if not the first in the country) was ruled unconstitutional by the Florida Supreme Court.
     
  15. Delta

    Delta Active Member

    MUA

    I thought MUA offered the BSN, MSN and Ph.D. online. If you go through the front door of their website www.mua.edu
    you will not find those degrees listed anymore. The only degrees I see are the B.S. premedical science and the M.D. Both on campus!

    I believe they have graduates who are licensed and even board certified now practicing in the U.S.
     
  16. laferney

    laferney Active Member

    Thanks for all the responses - I certainly respect the opinions expressed. Bill Dayson makes some excellent points. Little to dispute -except to say as a new doctoral program with a small enrollment you would not expect to see a great amount of published research esp. if compared to one of the USA's top medical schools (UCSF) and as for CalDogs post I'm already a celebrity! Seriously, I'm not ready to say MUA is in the same league as Pacific Western or LaCrosse University. I appreciate your notation about the accrediting process in St. Kitts and Nevis - but they have tightend up the process.
    http://www.stkittsnevis.net/accreditation.html
    While your reference points out the faults of the St.Kitts process in accrediting I can post one stating the MUA "Following a rigorous accreditation process, the Medical University was approved and chartered by the Government of St. Christopher-Nevis and is recognized by the World Health Organization (Seventh Edition). "
    http://mua-nevis.valuemd.com/index.htm
    But when we look to comparisons it is apples and oranges. Is comparing MUA . a medical school which has produced licensed practicing M.Ds in many states accross the USA, the same as Lacrosse or Pacific Western who 's graduates in Psychology (for ex) would never be eligible for licensure in any state? Has the ODA examined in depth the accreditation process in other carribean countries ( Haiti , Belize etc) and found them to be as rigourous as the USAs-I suspect no.
    As for listing positives as Bill Dayson suggests I'd point out
    a respectable faculty, a small student to instructor ratio, success in getting graduates licensed in the US (some indicator of quality education)and a physical campus well rated.
    I'M not trying to convince anyone to "like it" and obviously my reservations about MUA led to my posting. I appreciate all opinions expressed here. MY thought is the best indicator of this degree may be how NACES or if AACRAO views it- if they feel it is or isn't equal to a US degree.
     
  17. laferney

    laferney Active Member

    TO Delta
    I saw that too -the non MD degrees are not on the main site anymore. But the PH.D in Health Sciences is in the Catalogue at this site -
    descibed in detail in their catalogue:
    http://www.mua.edu/admis_studenthandbook.php
     
  18. bullet

    bullet New Member

    not specific enough

    There is nothing wrong with the accreditation from the Gov. of Nevis for this Medical School.

    To read the posts on this thread, a great deal of things come to mind about the bias of the poster. To catagorically spead innuendos and other garbage about caribbean medical schools as if though spoken with authority, is amazine......and which was granted by....... a google search>???? If you think this is easy to earn a medical degree in the Carib's, you should go and sit for class, have you ever heard the term BLACK MONDAY, do you know what happens on this day? Please, run to google, to see if you find this. Every time a post is contributed by the under-informed on this topic, you do a disservice to the many young men and women from all over the world that EARN the right to treat others; and for the paranoid that will only be treated by US doctors, please, never travel far away from your country and you need to research who has the high rate of MAL PRACTICE between US and foreign trained doctors, aside from the highest insurance rates.

    Aprox. 1/3 of all new medical graduates are from Carib medical schools.

    You will be well served with a PhD from this shool, since it is properly accredited by the government.
     
  19. laferney

    laferney Active Member

    To add to the positives of MUA I would also include this site:
    American Association of International Medical Graduates says about MUA:

    " This school was listed as provisional in the last report. It is rare for AAIMG to find 75% compliance for a new school, particularly in the Caribbean Basin. Of 9 new schools to open in the Caribbean and Central America since 1997, this is the only school with a permanent, suitable physical facility, adequate staffing and developed clerkships."

    MUA is listed in the Medical Schools meeting or exceeding their criteria. Interestingly enough many of the schools that didn't make the cut, with no real labs or facilities aren't on the Oregon list.
    This organization evaluates medical schools and does not endorse them.

    http://search.hp.netscape.com/hp/boomframe.jsp?query=world+health+organization+listing+of+medical+schools&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D324ba01e57a6b8a0%26clickedItemRank%3D5%26userQuery%3Dworld%2Bhealth%2Borganization%2Blisting%2Bof%2Bmedical%2Bschools%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.aaimg.com%252Flist%252Fcambridge.html%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DHPPAV1Top%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aaimg.com%2Flist%2Fcambridge.html
     
  20. laferney

    laferney Active Member

Share This Page